Turn 8 @ Adelaide, What do we do now??

[theugsquirrel]

Originally Posted by Wood-duck

A Safer barrier......?????

When a Car comes in and hits something a 200+ Kp/h it wouldnt really matter what sort of barrier it was. It is still gonna hurt !!!

SAFER barriers are designed for impacts much faster than 200 kmh, if you did not know. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAFER_barrier

Since it's change in 2002, it has consumed car after car after car. V8 people talk about cost cutting, and this corner is the most expensive corner in V8 racing....if you add up the accidents there over the years - millions of dollars spent.

That is because it is a drivers corner. It's challenging and unique and I'd think thats a bloody good reason to keep it there.

Leave the mega high speed turns for the circuits with the correct run off. If you want see the cars at these speeds, go to Phillip Island, not Adelaide.

Until someone has a serious accident at Phillip Island. Then you'll want chicanes put in there too, right?

[mac]

I repeat - simply if the armco was not on the apex of the corner, Ashley Cooper would most probably not have had an accident at all and we would not be having this discussion.

[wills]

As for removing the armco on the apex, a curb might be even more dangerous as it'll unsettle the car at high speeds(unless you put a chicane before it god forbid). Most bad crashes at turn 8 happens just before the exit of the corner so thats the part where the safer barriers should be put. Btw had Ashley Cooper not have crashed that weekend we'll be debating about the Senna chicane instead.

[PVDA]

Originally Posted by theugsquirrel

Until someone has a serious accident at Phillip Island. Then you'll want chicanes put in there too, right?

Hansford, McColl, Flack & a couple of Club racers on 2 & 4 wheels I could also mention have died at PI over the past few years and other than minor tinkering PI has remained the same.

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by theugsquirrel

SAFER barriers are designed for impacts much faster than 200 kmh, if you did not know. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAFER_barrier

drivers in the US have been singing their praises. seems to "help" the impact during speedway crashes. similar speeds as Turn8, however the angle is a bit different. i think the angle of impact should be similar. softwalls or not, it would still be a very frightening corner to haul it through.

nonetheless, one of the most exciting corners in Ausi V8 series; much like "the kink" at Road America.

I'm sorry to hear of Ashley Cooper's passing.

[Wood-duck]

Originally Posted by theugsquirrel

SAFER barriers are designed for impacts much faster than 200 kmh, if you did not know. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAFER_barrier




That is because it is a drivers corner. It's challenging and unique and I'd think thats a bloody good reason to keep it there.



Until someone has a serious accident at Phillip Island. Then you'll want chicanes put in there too, right?

These barriers look alright, but who would foot the bill ? It would probably end up seeing an increase in the ticket prices to cover it.Even so at that corner the sudden stop would still do damage with the angle of Turn 8 as a corner to the angle of the wall. Could you imagine if a car had complete steering failure and went straight ahead at the turn ??? It would be very ugly...

Turn 8:Challenging, Yes. Dangerous... even more so. Nearly every driver in the field has gone in there at some stage. It has gone to the point where there is now a gentlemans agreement that nobody passes going into Turn 8. Change the corner, create a passing opp. Reduce the risk of further serious injuries. Indy does not have a fast corner -is it any less of a spectacle ?

Re: PI ...This comment frankly is insulting. If you do not know of the tragedies that have occured at PI in the past, then i suggest you use your precious wiki to look it up.

When Stewie McColl tragically passed, the PI people ploughed traps in certain sections to slow the cars, rather than have them wipe off little speed across the grass into the earth walls. It saved Mr Dumbrell the following year... Maybe it is enough, maybe not. My Point is the PI has some run off and traps to slow the cars before they hit. Adelaide does not.

[mac]

Originally Posted by wills

As for removing the armco on the apex, a curb might be even more dangerous as it'll unsettle the car at high speeds...

Like the kerbs on the apex of Turn 1 at Eastern Creek, Doohan corner at Phillip Island, and the entry to The Chase at Bathurst do...?

You could easily put a flat kerb in there like the ones on these corners - which would be perfect.

[theugsquirrel]

Originally Posted by Wood-duck

These barriers look alright, but who would foot the bill ? It would probably end up seeing an increase in the ticket prices to cover it.Even so at that corner the sudden stop would still do damage with the angle of Turn 8 as a corner to the angle of the wall. Could you imagine if a car had complete steering failure and went straight ahead at the turn ??? It would be very ugly...

Yes, a chicane would be cheaper but people want to see exciting corners that challenge the drivers.
Several drivers have gone to hit the wall at that angle and they have been fine, because there has not been such vast lateral head movement.

Turn 8:Challenging, Yes. Dangerous... even more so. Nearly every driver in the field has gone in there at some stage. It has gone to the point where there is now a gentlemans agreement that nobody passes going into Turn 8. Change the corner, create a passing opp.

Don't need to - it's exciting exactly the way it is. All Tilke circuits evolve around those magic words "passing opportunities" and they're all **** boring as a result, because they're all exactly the same.

Reduce the risk of further serious injuries. Indy does not have a fast corner -is it any less of a spectacle ?

Yes.

Re: PI ...This comment frankly is insulting. If you do not know of the tragedies that have occured at PI in the past, then i suggest you use your precious wiki to look it up.

When Stewie McColl tragically passed, the PI people ploughed traps in certain sections to slow the cars, rather than have them wipe off little speed across the grass into the earth walls. It saved Mr Dumbrell the following year... Maybe it is enough, maybe not. My Point is the PI has some run off and traps to slow the cars before they hit. Adelaide does not.

I have already explained this.

[Trevor]

This thread is becoming so boring, the same old info hashed over and over again.

Time to move on me thinks

[Timu]

I agree, but the first point made about reverting to the original F1 circuit is the best option.

The crowds and corporate boxes have almost outgrown the current track anyway, so its a natural progression...

[PVDA]

Originally Posted by Wood-duck

When Stewie McColl tragically passed, the PI people ploughed traps in certain sections to slow the cars, rather than have them wipe off little speed across the grass into the earth walls.

Unfortunately a gravel trap wouldn't have had much affect on slowing McColl.

There were no braking skid marks in the grass what so ever prior to the impact point and as mentioned previously for a gravel trap to work the brakes have to be locked on so the wheels dig in.

[St00ge]

Originally Posted by Big_Trev

Why do we need guarding on machinery, people know the risks!

Why do we need fall protection on building sites, people know the risks.

Why do we need welding masks, people know the risks.

Why do we need seat blets, people know the risks.

Why do we need airbags, people know the risks

Blah, blah, blah, blah.


This is just not acceptable thinking these days - sorry.

You are required to do everything that is reasonably possible to reduce the risk, has CAMS done this with turn 8 - I think not.


By law you are required to use the Hierachy of Controls for reduing risk, here is a link to the SafeWork SA, maybe CAMS should have a read Hierachy of Control, start at the top and work down, the bottom being the leat effective, and that is where HANS devices fit in.

Let me guess you are the OH&S officer at your workplace Definatly not the kinda person to make changes to a race track

.....

If you give the drivers a inch, they will taker a mile, so widening the corner is not really a option... I think the SAFER barrier is the only thing that should be considered... Yes it is only currently used on permanent circuits but I can not see why it can not be setup on the exit to turn 8... The cost will not doubt lumped onto the punters.... Other than that the corner should not be changed because of a death (RIP Ashley) as I think we will all find that something else was a factor in his death and not just the corner as countless other people have crashed there and are still alive today....

.....

Also on general track safety I think the run off areas as used on the Paul Ricard circuit should be looked at as a replacement for some gravel traps in the future, if any new circuits ever get built in Australia (wishful thinking)

http://www.circuitpaulricard.com/med...aPiste2_xl.jpg
http://www.circuitpaulricard.com/med...stbaume_xl.jpg

Strips of coarse stones which slow the cars down and at worst will cut up a set of tyres and apparently do a very good job of allowing the driver to straighten up the car and drive out of most mishaps... Oh hang on the V8s carn't afford to cut up a set of tyres so scrap that idea

[MPA]

Originally Posted by PVDA

Unfortunately a gravel trap wouldn't have had much affect on slowing McColl.

There were no braking skid marks in the grass what so ever prior to the impact point and as mentioned previously for a gravel trap to work the brakes have to be locked on so the wheels dig in.

Indeed. Turn 4 (Honda) is one of the slowest corners on the track and has been altered several time since the track reopened in the late 80s. The flag point used to be on drivers left and often got hit and many drivers have gone home with straight cars since it was moved and they sailed harmlessly through the dirt where the earth wall and flag point used to be. The run into Honda now has one of the biggest gravel traps on driver's right since all those pesky trees were removed. The return road provides a good escape if you mess up your braking.

However, if you don't lose any speed at all in the braking zone and leave the circuit at full noise due to the pedal going to the floor the impact with the wall will be severe.

[Icebaby]

I've watch the accident a few times and whilst a huge Impact I am suprised Ashley dies as a result when all the force went passenger side and when the car rolled back to the other side it looked as though Ashley was still on the brakes.

If you ask any driver they love challenging corners and turn 8 is simply one of them, the drivers are well aware of the risks and it is their choice to go into the car or not accepting that there is always a chance of an accident. There are many roads more dangerous than turn 8 in the world where people die each month so putting this into perspective turn 8 for me should remain.

I haven't read all the threads posted but was the Inital Impact the reason Ashley died, I understand head Injuries were the reason so was there an Intrusion into the cockpit. I really feel for his family as it just didnt look like a crash that someone could not recover from.

[Axeman444]

Originally Posted by Big_Trev

This thread is becoming so boring, the same old info hashed over and over again.

Time to move on me thinks

Trev, if driver safety is boring to you, don't open the thread

an article about Jeff Gordon's crash on the weekend in Las Vegas had some pointed remarks:

And hopefully it's a step toward complete coverage at all racetracks, the only way to prevent the heartbreaking possibility of a driver being injured -- or worse -- in a collision with an unprotected wall when the technology existed to prevent it

http://www.nascar.com/2008/news/opin...gas/index.html

sure drivers know the risk, BUT, if there is a way to limit the risk then it should be done. SAFER barrier, remove Armco, move the wall back

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by Axeman444

Trev, if driver safety is boring to you, don't open the thread

My comment had nothing to do with driver safety, it had to do with the same old stuff being hashed over and over and over again since the start of the thread. No new ideas are coming to the table old son, none.

[Axeman444]

old?

[johnh875]

Originally Posted by Axeman444

old?

theugsquirrel continual dragging out of the old line "the drivers know the risk" line for starters. That went out in the mid 1960's

[theugsquirrel]

Originally Posted by johnh875

theugsquirrel continual dragging out of the old line "the drivers know the risk" line for starters. That went out in the mid 1960's

And thats how you end up with identikit circuits. I already gave constructive suggestions that retain the character of the corner as well as increasing safety. Whereas you have offered nothing.

[bludvl_x19]

Did anone manage to catch the report by the well respected Today Tonight about making motorsport safer? I missed it 'cos I was driving, but I did manage to catch a promo, and it looked like all the info was derived from either wiki, or ten-tenths. I suppose it was the usual uniformed media beat up about how motorsport should be banned, and I'm sure they managed to get a greenie, and probably Harold Scruby (just as well respecet in the motoring community) as well, just for some journalistic credability.


Mick

[madman16]

Basically just a big promo for the new "safer barrier" used on the ovals.

They come out now and say that if they were there Cooper would still be alive. No mention of the countless acidents on that corner who have walked away.

Said they've been in use for a few years now in america but fail to mention that until recently (if ever) that they haven't been used on temp walls before.

$1000 a metre for this wall, who will pay for it? Since the Clipsal actually makes money i don't see where this would be an issue. If/when available i'd say that they'd be on adelaide's to-do list straight away.

[bludvl_x19]

I would like to know if AC's seat breaking had anything to do with the injuries that he sustained. Because if it did, how do you factor that into designing a car/track? Should you also assume that an engine might blow up, and so legislate a 600rpm limit?

Mick

[peckstar]

was watching the v8s on the weekend at a permamnent track with runoffs and gravel traps and tyre walls and it appears that those things dont really make motorsport safe, down one car and if some other factor came into play like a seat or belt failure we could have been down one main game driver

[Just Do It!]

FPR might be lucky and salvage $50,000 of parts of the Castrol car.....with reasonable run-off on the said corner