Historic Racers In Europe - Carnet Requirements?

[john ruston]

Or the many European cars parked in UK where the UK authorities can take 5 %

[smokystove]

Originally Posted by john ruston

Or the many European cars parked in UK where the UK authorities can take 5 %

Well it would only be fair. Fun times ahead!

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by smokystove

And as you mentioned earlier, it's not as if customs agents can't use the internet either.

Sure. I see your french language is very good. They have what is called "brigades spécialisées" very well trained and fully aware. Internet, mobile phones, dedicated experts, experience all this kind of things to make your day!

Decades ago, I used to be in touch with a specialized office (DGCCRF) for some reason. They explained one part of their monitoring of the income taxes payment. Each Thursday morning started "la lecture". News of the week, La Centrale, nothing to read but sales ads. First Targets? Ferrari and Rolls Royce owners posting nice pictures of the car they wanted to sale, showing the reg number. No reconciliation possible between income and owning a cost beauty? Bob is gonna give you a call!

If I still understand well, the kind of stuff you're interested in can't be found through the pages of Car and Classic, right? As said they are in contact with experts and they monitor the results of the auctions. Always and worldwide.

[Gerard C]

I feel that from mid April, you might be bothered at french customs. From England, may be it would be better to land in Holland or Belgium? With "goods" value going from 300k to several M, its worth to check any percent…

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Gerard C

Decades ago, I used to be in touch with a . specialized office (DGCCRF) for some reason. They explained one part of their monitoring of the income taxes payment. Each Thursday morning started "la lecture". News of the week, La Centrale, nothing to read but sales ads. First Targets? Ferrari and Rolls Royce owners posting nice pictures of the car they wanted to sale, showing the reg number. No reconciliation possible between income and owning a cost beauty? Bob is gonna give you a call!

In the UK, a satirical magazine, which has been published fortnightly since 1961, and they also follow the behaviour of our politicians as well as companies, both in the UK and worldwide.

Back in the 80s, a friend of mine, who at the time was a quite senior civil servant with what was then our Internal Revenue department, told me that the largest subscriber to the magazine was his department, and they had dedicated members who were responsible for trawling through it to see what businesses were up to. And that many prosecutions of businesses were made solely due to what they had gathered from the publication.

Sadly, I don't think that they still follow that practice.

[Gerard C]

In the seventies, the import of goods was strictly regulated and checked between the UK and F. I was a Sunday race rider and the bike to have was a T 20 250 Suzuki, the weapon of choice for any amateur. A good bloke "passed" his Crooks Suzuki dismantled by train, in three journeys… The fairing was not very discrete to customs officers tho… But it worked. Nice memory.

[john ruston]

Belgium seems to be the import country of choice within EU

[Alan Morgan]

Here is a fragment from the Government site about carnets - the punctuation and use of parentheses make it harder to understand than it should be.

*Carnets can only be issued for racing vehicles that are transported to the EU or any other Carnet country under transport contract (i.e. by freight forwarder / haulier). Any such vehicles can only be used on a dedicated race-track or on the roads closed to public. If the vehicle is road worthy and is being driven to the country of destination by the owner– then the Carnet is not required (the same applies to personal vehicles being towed or transported by the owner (i.e. motorbike transported to EU in a van by the owner; car being towed behind a motorhome vehicle driven by the owner etc).

That's positive news - probably

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Alan Morgan

Here is a fragment from the Government site about carnets - the punctuation and use of parentheses make it harder to understand than it should be.



That's positive news - probably

But what you have quoted doesn't seem to address the position of cars, etc. being towed/transported by someone like Iain (Delta) who is taking the car/s, etc on behalf of a customers who he will looking after at a meeting, and then bringing the said object/s back to the UK.

[Alan Morgan]

Yes - Iain's neither a freight forwarder or haulier. These "Carnet Guidance Notes" are a lot more scary.

https://www.londonchamber.co.uk/LCCI...Notes-2021.pdf

...looks like Iain's going to have to leave the "NEXT Black Cocktail Dress Size 12" at home to make his life easier

[E.B]

Originally Posted by Alan Morgan

Yes - Iain's neither a freight forwarder or haulier. These "Carnet Guidance Notes" are a lot more scary.

https://www.londonchamber.co.uk/LCCI...Notes-2021.pdf

...looks like Iain's going to have to leave the "NEXT Black Cocktail Dress Size 12" at home to make his life easier

Iain will get Mrs D to alter it into a race suit or a pair of shorts.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Alan Morgan

Yes - Iain's neither a freight forwarder or haulier. These "Carnet Guidance Notes" are a lot more scary.

https://www.londonchamber.co.uk/LCCI...Notes-2021.pdf

...looks like Iain's going to have to leave the "NEXT Black Cocktail Dress Size 12" at home to make his life easier

And what do they mean when they say that they cannot issue a Carnet for: Goods used as a means of transport? OK, they are racing vehicles, but saloons, GTs etc. are a means of transport.

[midgetman]

Surely for the purposes of this legislation Iain and I are hauliers? It's not our goods we're carrying and we're doing so for hire or reward.

Sent from my AC2003 using Tapatalk

[morninggents]

Presumably the words 'under transport contract' would cover Iain's situation as presumably he is contracting to take vehicles to the circuit and home again as well as looking after the vehicle at the circuit. It doesn't appear that the words in brackets 'i.e. by freight forwarder/haulier' are the only examples where a carnet could be issued.

Damn, just seen that Max beat me to it!

[Simon Davey]

Originally Posted by Alan Morgan

Here is a fragment from the Government site about carnets - the punctuation and use of parentheses make it harder to understand than it should be.



That's positive news - probably

Alan - please can you post a specific link to the source of your quote - or any other directions for finding it in the morass of Govt information. It's of great interest to me because I will be taking a single seater to Europe this year (hopefully) to race it - towing it on a trailer behind my motorhome. I have been researching the whole topic of Carnets for some time, but I can't track down the quote you have found. It seems to be very relevant.



Thanks!
Simon Davey

[Colin McKay]

Originally Posted by midgetman

Surely for the purposes of this legislation Iain and I are hauliers? It's not our goods we're carrying and we're doing so for hire or reward.

Sent from my AC2003 using Tapatalk

There's the rub Max. If doing it for hire & reward you'll need a Standard International Operator's Licence and all the tachograph rules will apply, even for a Transit van & trailer. Driver will need a DCPC card as well = 35 hours training every 5 years. I can't see any way around this.

[eamonn ledwidge]

Originally Posted by Simon Davey

Alan - please can you post a specific link to the source of your quote - or any other directions for finding it in the morass of Govt information. It's of great interest to me because I will be taking a single seater to Europe this year (hopefully) to race it - towing it on a trailer behind my motorhome. I have been researching the whole topic of Carnets for some time, but I can't track down the quote you have found. It seems to be very relevant.



Thanks!
Simon Davey

Look here: https://www.londonchamber.co.uk/expo...ts/ata-carnet/

Scroll down to the bottom and view FAQs

[Gerard C]

Is it the same as: https://www.londonchamber.co.uk/expo...ts/ata-carnet/

[eamonn ledwidge]

Originally Posted by Gerard C

Is it the same as: https://www.londonchamber.co.uk/expo...ts/ata-carnet/

In FAQs:

The ATA Carnet is a temporary admission document which acts as a passport for goods for three main categories of goods:

Commercial samples (goods to be shown or demonstrated to potential buyers i.e. jewellery, clothing etc)
Goods for presentation or use at trade fairs, shows, conferences, works of art to be exhibited at galleries and museums etc
Professional equipment (tools and equipment required to perform a paid commercial activity abroad, goods for testing and evaluation, theatrical effects, orchestras, racing vehicles*, broadcasting equipment, specially adapted vehicles** etc). Horses for racing purposes, commercial shows or breeding. Professional equipment must be used by, or under the personal supervision of the holder or his nominated representative
*Carnets can only be issued for racing vehicles that are transported to the EU or any other Carnet country under transport contract (i.e. by freight forwarder / haulier). Any such vehicles can only be used on a dedicated race-track or on the roads closed to public. If the vehicle is road worthy and is being driven to the country of destination by the owner– then the Carnet is not required (the same applies to personal vehicles being towed or transported by the owner (i.e. motorbike transported to EU in a van by the owner; car being towed behind a motorhome vehicle driven by the owner etc).

** Specially adapted vehicles can be driven on public roads and include any vehicle with permanently fitted equipment (i.e. broadcasting vans, exhibition trailers, water filter trucks etc)

[midgetman]

Originally Posted by Colin McKay

There's the rub Max. If doing it for hire & reward you'll need a Standard International Operator's Licence and all the tachograph rules will apply, even for a Transit van & trailer. Driver will need a DCPC card as well = 35 hours training every 5 years. I can't see any way around this.

In as much as I can cram my stuff into a 3500kg van, I presume I'm under that. But you can't do that with a racing car can you?

Sent from my AC2003 using Tapatalk

[Gerard C]

May be its worth to contact a customs agency having experience in this particular matter, there's a huge difference between pros under contract and owners making a private use:
Carnets can only be issued for racing vehicles that are transported to the EU or any other Carnet country under transport contract (i.e. by freight forwarder / haulier). Any such vehicles can only be used on a dedicated race-track or on the roads closed to public. If the vehicle is road worthy and is being driven to the country of destination by the owner– then the Carnet is not required (the same applies to personal vehicles being towed or transported by the owner (i.e. motorbike transported to EU in a van by the owner; car being towed behind a motorhome vehicle driven by the owner etc).

I dont think you need a tacho for a van under 3500kg trailing or not even for professional use.

Dont remember if this has been posted before: https://www.autosport.com/national/n...75882/4975882/

[Gerard C]

From our gov website: "Le chronotachygraphe numérique, qui remplace depuis 2006 l'appareil analogique de contrôle des temps de conduite et de repos des conducteurs, doit obligatoirement être installé sur les véhicules de transport de marchandises de plus de 3,5 tonnes et sur les véhicules de transport de voyageurs de plus de 9 places (y compris le siège du conducteur), immatriculés dans les États membres de l'Union européenne, sous peine de sanction."

[Tel 911S]

This link is fairly easy to understand .http://www.autoaddicts.co.uk/brexit-...MTJYaX45Cdq5XA
You do not need a Carnet if it is your own registered vehicle ,and any spares can be on a duplicate list .

Under UK law , any vehicle towing with a gross weight over 3500KG needs a Tacho & O licence unless it is private use only .But you must have all of your facts in place before you go as VOSA can be extremely difficult if they think it might be HIRE OR REWARD

[Tel 911S]

Originally Posted by Tel 911S

This link is fairly easy to understand .http://www.autoaddicts.co.uk/brexit-...MTJYaX45Cdq5XA
You do not need a Carnet if it is your own registered vehicle ,and any spares can be on a duplicate list .

Under UK law , any vehicle towing with a gross weight over 3500KG needs a Tacho & O licence unless it is private use only .But you must have all of your facts in place before you go as VOSA can be extremely difficult if they think it might be HIRE OR REWARD

I should of course have said DVSA instead of VOSA, because they changed a few years ago .
Have had many runs in with them over the years ,and they can be very awkward when they want to be so you need to know what is what before you do any towing with a van , or even a SUV which will also needs a Tacho if it is HIRE OR REWARD.

[eamonn ledwidge]

[QUOTE=Tel 911S;4046081]This link is fairly easy to understand .http://www.autoaddicts.co.uk/brexit-...MTJYaX45Cdq5XA
You do not need a Carnet if it is your own registered vehicle ,and any spares can be on a duplicate list .


This is all very well, but there is clearly no awareness or recognition amongst those who drafted these arrangements that some racing cars, specifically single seaters and sports racers, are not road registered and insured for road use.

How are we left??