[Team] Red Bull: Unbullievable

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by peebee2

That’s ridiculous. Nobody could accuse him of making emotional decisions.

I can't quite put my finger on what it is with him I don't like. Probably a number of things. I can say I wouldn't want to work for/with him. Thinking about it... He comes across as a Jacques Villeneuve type. Always has a quick quote on his tongue and typically it is him gently sliding the knife between your ribs as he looks you in the face. Be it someone on his own team or elsewhere. He is an equal opportunity assassin.

Richard

[S griffin]

Maybe his treatment of Webber and the way he blamed him for the Turkey 2010 collision, even though it was Vettel who drove into Webber?

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by Kempi

Does this person exist outside of Hamilton, Leclerc and (with an asterix due to his performance over the last 12 months) Vettel?

Hamilton
Bottas
Ricciardo
Leclerc
Vettel
Norris
Sainz
Alonso


Perhaps:
Hulkenberg
Perez
Raikkonen
Russel

[midgetman]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Nothing at all, IMO, other than dumping the car off in qually.

Thanks. I did not follow qually either! Work is the curse of the racing classes.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by midgetman

Thanks. I did not follow qually either! Work is the curse of the racing classes.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

Yep, I have a whole 30 days of it left........ (Actually only 20 working days).

[Adam43]

The second driver is the least of their problems.

Red Bull are frankly not good enough for Max. https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14...oid-wasting-20

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by Adam43

The second driver is the least of their problems.

Red Bull are frankly not good enough for Max. https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14...oid-wasting-20

To win the world championship you need to have ALL the pieces of the puzzle in place. You can't pick and choose. Everything needs to be on sufficient level: the chassis, the engine, the drivers, strategists, the engineers, the team etc.

First they had the best drivers and chassis but their engine wasn't up their. Now the engine is getting there but the chassis ain't superior like it was the last few years and Ricciardo walked.

Max has been quite patient and loyal to Red Bull but he can't wait forever. I reckon the Verstappen camp is upping the pressure to make the right measure/extra investment if they want to keep Max.

Without Max, Red Bull would have no chance of a championship and what will Mateschitz do then?

[S griffin]

I reckon that he will look for every get out clause if one of the top two seats become available. More chance of success there.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I reckon that he will look for every get out clause if one of the top two seats become available. More chance of success there.

Does he need a get out clause? I thought his was one of the contracts that's up at the end of next season? (along with Vettel, Hamilton, Bottas, Ricciardo) It looks like a big shake up at the front of the grid is possible at the end of next season.

[steve_r]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

Does he need a get out clause? I thought his was one of the contracts that's up at the end of next season? (along with Vettel, Hamilton, Bottas, Ricciardo) It looks like a big shake up at the front of the grid is possible at the end of next season.

The chances are that the performance of the top teams relative to one another will only change slightly next season, as the regulations are staying more or less the same.

But in 2021 the regulations are going to change significantly, so that may result in a shake up in the relative performances. The time for Max to move was last season, but instead he signed on again with RBR. A move in 2021 to Ferrari or Mercedes, may not be a step into the unknown as such, but who can tell which team will do the best job of adapting to a new set of regulations? RBR are probably just as likely to design a 2021 championship winning car as anyone else

[S griffin]

Maybe he could find a get out clause for 2020, if he finds a good reason to jump ship to either Ferrari or Merc

[E.B]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Maybe he could find a get out clause for 2020, if he finds a good reason to jump ship to either Ferrari or Merc

All get out clauses for Max to get out of Red Bull for 2020 expired on the Sunday of the 2019 Hungarian GP weekend, so he is now contractually committed to RBR until the end of next season 2020, after which at this stage he becomes a free agent as has been mentioned.

https://www.gpfans.com/en/articles/4...lause-expires/

[rbs]

If Max is that good he should have scored many more points than his new team mate. Alex Albon has scored 26 to MV's 31. Could it be that MV is not as good we all think and new youngsters are trying a little bit harder. Max will have to try a lot harder if he really wants to his seat at Red Bull as I am sure Ferrari & Mercedes would not want to swap there current line up's, so where can he go?

[steve_r]

Originally Posted by rbs

If Max is that good he should have scored many more points than his new team mate. Alex Albon has scored 26 to MV's 31. Could it be that MV is not as good we all think and new youngsters are trying a little bit harder. Max will have to try a lot harder if he really wants to his seat at Red Bull as I am sure Ferrari & Mercedes would not want to swap there current line up's, so where can he go?

Not sure if you are being serious or not. This season neither Gasly or Albon have been anywhere near as quick as Verstappen.

If I were Mercedes or Ferrari boss, I would swap Bottas or Vettel for him at the drop of a hat.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by steve_r

Not sure if you are being serious or not. This season neither Gasly or Albon have been anywhere near as quick as Verstappen.

Yet. Albon's barely out of his F1 nappies.....

If I were Mercedes or Ferrari boss, I would swap Bottas or Vettel for him at the drop of a hat.

That I probably do agree with...

[Adam43]

Me too. I don’t disagree much with what Jos says. However, I find it a little distasteful for some reason. Shouldn’t it be more we are all working together with the team that gave my son his big break. Rather than now we are bigger and we are off and we are done with you now. It’s not going to help team spirit.

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Me too. I don’t disagree much with what Jos says. However, I find it a little distasteful for some reason. Shouldn’t it be more we are all working together with the team that gave my son his big break. Rather than now we are bigger and we are off and we are done with you now. It’s not going to help team spirit.

It's not really about saying, adios we're off. It's more about trying to leverage more pressure in order to have the right level of investment and the right people in the right places.

If it is the right approach remains to be seen, but I don't think anyone can rightfully accuse the Verstappen camp of being impatient. They have given them plenty of years. Any other top team would've put him in a decent F1 seat one year after Red Bull was willing to.

I do wonder if there wouldn't be an improvement in driver line up management if the F1 part of it was handled by Horner in stead of Marko.

[GT6]

All this speculation about drivers and the structure of RBR is fun but at the moment they still sit behind the top 2 cars and need to make that small jump in performance, and to be honest once they do that they have the drivers be on the top spot on a regular basis.

[JAFA851]

Originally Posted by Taxi645

I do wonder if there wouldn't be an improvement in driver line up management if the F1 part of it was handled by Horner in stead of Marko.

I also wonder what other great technical people have either left or won't join because they don't want to work for Marko? leaving the door open to those less experienced / not as bright, and desperate to get a foot in the F1 door at any cost for a few years experience then they can go to their preferred outfit.

[S griffin]

It makes you wonder how much better they would be doing if Newey was still as involved as he was before

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by S griffin

It makes you wonder how much better they would be doing if Newey was still as involved as he was before

We put him on a pedestal. And he deserves to be there. But the well can go dry for anyone. So he may or may not rescue them. I also wonder how involved he is today. Maybe more than people think?

Richard

[chillibowl]

for me this sort of touches on some of the larger problems with F1.

while Max is still young he has been in F1 for 5 seasons now and with his obvious talent level it is, imo, a failing of the sport that such a driver has not yet been able to legitimately compete for a title...for many reasons expressed in many different threads here, there are not enough competitive rides out vis a vis the number of talented drivers currently on the grid.

so i can understand a father's frustration and perhaps this is a good tool to take advantage of....i cant help but think about the timing of the comments.

maybe tacitly on behalf of RB, Jos can apply some justifiable public pressure to Honda before the Japanese GP in the hopes that Honda will scale up their investment/contributions.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

so i can understand a father's frustration and perhaps this is a good tool to take advantage of....i cant help but think about the timing of the comments.

Actually, I think what is going on is very smart of the Verstappen family. The message is being communicated by Jos and not Max. This allows Max to avoid blowback of being critical of the larger RBR effort. And to be honest, I think the message from Jos is quite respectful. My reading of it is him not slagging anyone.

Originally Posted by chillibowl

maybe tacitly on behalf of RB, Jos can apply some justifiable public pressure to Honda before the Japanese GP in the hopes that Honda will scale up their investment/contributions.

To be honest, I find that line of thinking odd. That the problem is Honda and that more pressure is needed to get results? Here is a quote by Jos from the Autosport article

We're a little behind with the car, we're a little behind with the engine. We need to work harder on those two things if we want to be able to go for the championship next year.

It's clear he understand that at the end of the day that what Max steps into on GP weekends is a car that is a product of the entire team. And if we take him at his word, he feels improvements are needed everywhere.

IMHO, Honda has done nothing but a stellar job to come from where they were (effectively a total redesign of their engine just a few years ago) to knocking on the door of Mercedes and Ferrari. Clearly there is a gap, but I see no evidence that they are not focused and making progress. It's just not like you can yell at them and expect them to pull extra performance out of their backside. But it's still fair to ask them to move the ball forward on the engine front. Which I am sure they are trying to do.

Honda already has brought a new spec in prep for Japan (what Max has now) and I believe they plan to bring a new fuel spec for the Japanese race to try to unlock even more performance. That has been in the works for awhile and would have to have been done in conjunction with the spec they are using now. I think if it was ready earlier, it would have been brought forward earlier.

While Mercedes and Ferrari is leading the way, we are starting to get some level of performance parity. With different solutions working best track to track and section to section. I am of the opinion that we are getting to the point that no single component (driver, chassis, power unit) is so much superior to the others that it just covers up deficiencies in the rest of the solution.

To move forward, I expect RBR needs to make a number of improvements in multiple areas. Which goes back to Jos' comments. He is asking the entire team to figure this out. The end result needs to be better.

Richard

[chillibowl]

while i have been critical of Honda, i agree that there are no doubt many things that need to be addressed of which all require more money, same sized, or even greater budget as Merc or Ferrari.

in this case im not suggesting that Honda is the problem but rather they, as being the much bigger corporation, have deeper pockets and all things being equal have more resources to bring to bear at redressing the current spending imbalance.

the money has to come from somewhere...i suppose another way to look at it is if RB are feeling the effects of some amount of resources going to STR?

developing drivers is great but would a more consolidated effort be more practical?

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

in this case im not suggesting that Honda is the problem but rather they, as being the much bigger corporation, have deeper pockets and all things being equal have more resources to bring to bear at redressing the current spending imbalance.

Fair enough. It would be interesting to know what the respective budgets are for the power unit side of things are. Who is out spending who.

Richard