Porsche 997 - Development Curve

[Kempi]

but it is suggested space for the engine may be a problem I think.

Alzen Motorsport is experimenting with planting the Carrera GT's V10 into the Cayman, so engine space can't be too small.

The 997's problem is not top speed - see trap speeds at Le Mans

I don't have the speed trap data handy, but just a thought: Equal or slightly higher topspeed won't help you if the cornering speeds are significantly lower. I just read in the German sport auto that the F430 is substantually better in mid- to highspeed corners, so if it gains a lot of time there, the 997 won't make up for it on straights if it only has a slight topspeed advantage. If my memory serves me correctly, the 996 always had a significant topspeed advantage over the F360, thus being able to make up for (alleged) slower cornering speeds.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Kempi

If my memory serves me correctly, the 996 always had a significant topspeed advantage over the F360, thus being able to make up for (alleged) slower cornering speeds.

That is correct. Porsche used to have a top speed advantage over the Ferrari which has a bigger wind screen. For the 997 this is gone because of the wider (rear) wheel arches.

The Ferrari has always be faster in mid and high speed corners because of the better weight distribution (mid engine layout).

[Jonerz]

Can someone refresh my memory. Which won at Monza in the GT2 class in the LMS and FIA GT races? IIRC, both were won by Ferrari 430's. Admittedly, Monza does have Parabolica, but what at that track gave the advantage to the 430? Does it boil down to one more year of development?

Chris

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by bil588

The wider tires meant more weight due to the rules.

Team Trans Sport Racing races their 997 as it comes from Porsche.

http://www.americanlemans.com/News/Article.aspx?ID=3044

They had a new tire from Yokohama at Lime Rock.

http://www.americanlemans.com/News/Article.aspx?ID=3388

I knew Trans Sport were. But Flying Lizard and Tafel (teams with greater support from - and more weight to throw around with Porsche) have made radical changes. That is why I believe they are infinitely more competitive. Though, the fact that Trans Sport do run on Yoko's does indicate to me a possibly hindrance in their performance. (sorry for the double post)

Chris

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

The 997's problem is not top speed - see trap speeds at Le Mans

Yes, top speed is no problem, but they lost their advantage.

This is the median of the top 5 speed during the race of 2007:

• Porsche 997
  • Flying Lizard: 293 km/h
  • Autorlando: 292 km/h
  • IMSA Performance: 292 km/h
• Ferrari 430
  • Scuderia Ecosse: 291 km/h
  • Risi: 291 km/h

[Spyderman]

Yes, it seems that we are talking in circles.


The 997 does not have a top speed problem. It is as fast as (or slightly faster than) the Ferrari's.
Its problems lie in the fast and mid speed corners.
It also takes longer to break (due to weight) and is harder on its tires.


It does have an advantage in the slower corners due to more mechanical traction and is better in the wet.

[gwyllion]

You missed fuel economy Porsche is heavier, so worse mileage.

[bil588]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

It does have an advantage in the slower corners due to more mechanical traction and is better in the wet.

So why hasn't a Porsche won at the four street races so far (three in ALMS and one in FIA GT) ?

Who says it is better in the wet? Is Ralf Kelleners really the only driver to race both the F430 and the 997?

[PorscheFanNo1]

Originally Posted by bil588

Who says it is better in the wet?

Physics does.

[cmk]

Originally Posted by bil588

So why hasn't a Porsche won at the four street races so far (three in ALMS and one in FIA GT) ?

Who says it is better in the wet? Is Ralf Kelleners really the only driver to race both the F430 and the 997?

I'm sure there might be one or two others in Europe, probably gentlemen or those we'd have trouble soliciting quotes from over the internet. There are certainly enough 430s in Spanish GT and International GT Open... The prevalence of factory drivers in both cars in the high-profile series combined with the lack of 997s running in smaller series reduces the number though.

[old man]

Originally Posted by cmk

I'm sure there might be one or two others in Europe, probably gentlemen or those we'd have trouble soliciting quotes from over the internet. There are certainly enough 430s in Spanish GT and International GT Open... The prevalence of factory drivers in both cars in the high-profile series combined with the lack of 997s running in smaller series reduces the number though.

Tim Sugden raced the old RSR with a lot of success and then switched to the 430 which he said from the start was easier to drive and also won in that car. He has driven the Cup car but I don't think as yet he has raced the new 997 GT2 car. Ian Khan (who would qualify as a Gentleman) switched from 430 to GT3 Porsche for Spa and when asked gave fuel consumption and gearbox longevity as his reasons I believe, he won that class in the Porsche but I think will be back in the 430 for the 1000k if he does it, havn't checked the entry list. There may be others but I can't think who has driven both in 2007 guise

[Spyderman]

Interesting Qualy results at SPA.
The 997 was 0,5 second faster than the Ferrari.

[gwyllion]

Look at the driver you got pole and you know why.

[bil588]

Why is the IMSA team the only one with Michelin tires in GT2 LMS?

Why a special deal?

http://translate.google.com/translat...e.php?sid=3220

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Look at the driver you got pole and you know why.

I'm not sure what you mean.
Do you mean Ferrari can only get poles when they have ex-F1 drivers at the wheel?

[vandijk]

Originally Posted by bil588

Why is the IMSA team the only one with Michelin tires in GT2 LMS?

Why a special deal?

http://translate.google.com/translat...e.php?sid=3220

Michelin does not supply tires to GT2 teams in LMS. These guys get their tires from a broker and fit them to the rims themselves. Easy and clever way to claim an advantage of over a second on most tracks on the Dunlop and Pirelli teams...

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

I'm not sure what you mean.
Do you mean Ferrari can only get poles when they have ex-F1 drivers at the wheel?

Just find out where (the Porsche of) Marc Lieb qualified during 24 hours of Spa and where his car ended on GT2 podium

[Spyderman]

He didn't do too badly this time!

[Speed-King]

especially after losing one lap by the unfortunate safetycar...

[cmk]

Michelin-tyred Ferrari faster than Pirelli-tyred Porsche at Spa24h, Pirelli-tyred Porsche faster than Dunlop-tyred Ferrari at Spa 1000k. Pirelli has come on strong with their Porsche boots, and Dunlop has seriously impressed this year with their tyres for Virgo, but isn't it much more reasonable to pick the Michelins on Bruni's car over his superiority as being the reason he sat on the pole at the former race?

It is also worth noting that it was Manu Collard, not Lieb, who set the BMS car's time at the Spa 24, but that Lieb came quite close to it at the 1000k. Furthermore, anyone who suggests that Lieb is demonstrably faster than Manu Collard (possibly THE consummate sportscar professional right now, as quick as anyone in Porsche 997 GT2 cars, the Pescarolo LMP1 and the Penske RS Spyder LMP2) is off their rocker. Since Bruni has not shown himself to be leaps and bounds ahead of his fellow Ferrari drivers just because he's had F1 experience (compare to any of Ortelli, Aguas, Melo, Salo, Muller or Vilander) I would not consequently rate him much more than Simonsen or Bell. I claim that tyres tell the tale in the Spa comparison, but also that Porsche is stronger there relative to Ferrari than at many other tracks.

[Spyderman]

..except possibly Le Mans.

[bil588]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

Interesting Qualy results at SPA.
The 997 was 0,5 second faster than the Ferrari.

Interesting qualifying results at Mosport.

Melo in the # 62 Ferrari ahead of the nearest Porsche (Henzler in the # 71 car) by .656 second.

[Spyderman]

Well, it's back to square one.
It's looking more and more like Porsche will have some serious work cut out for them during the off season.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by bil588

Interesting qualifying results at Mosport.

Melo in the # 62 Ferrari ahead of the nearest Porsche (Henzler in the # 71 car) by .656 second.

In the race the difference in pace was even worse: 1:18.539 (Risi #62) vs 1:19.675 (Flying Lizard #45).

[ThePenguin]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

Well, it's back to square one.
It's looking more and more like Porsche will have some serious work cut out for them during the off season.

But if anyone could accomplish that it is Porsche.