[WEC] BoP. Brilliant or Pants.

[TCT]

Always the same team winning and dominating makes things boring.

Especially if they (ACOFIA/WEC) hype thing up: oh, we have 14 cars that can win. This will be the most spectacular season ever.


In reality: the victoy for Toyota was never in doubt.
And only 2 cars can win. Not 14. Not even 6. Just 2.




GTE is not spec class but there it is interesting.

[KlBD]

Originally Posted by TCT

The Ferrari passed the Porsche as if it is standing still.
LMDh cars don't stand a chance against the LMH cars.




Or maybe Fred Mako just is a poor driver and Calado a good one, is that what you are suggesting?

I think you are cherry picking a bit when my comment about the drivers is in relation to the overall pace of other cars vs. the Toyota. I don't recall I ever disagreed with you that there is a difference in pace between the Hypercar & LMDh.

To be honest I cannot comment on that overtake that Calado did on the 963 at the end because I didn't see it and wasn't watching the end of the race very closely, anyway. I wouldn't be surprised though since it was close to the end of a race, we've seen before at these stages some cars are trying to stretch to the end on fuel tires and cannot maintain a fast pace, plus we know the Porsche struggles with rear grip onnold tires and the Ferrari has the best straight line speed. So I would say it's not that surprising even if I did not see Calado's overtake.

[Adam43]

*bump* A thread dedicated to how the BoP is set for WEC.

Here are your latest BoP tables. Hypercar and GTE-Am.

Hypercar (8/3/2023): http://fiawec.alkamelsystems.com/Res...P_08032023.pdf

GTE-Am (19/4/2023): http://fiawec.alkamelsystems.com/Res...A_19042023.pdf

[DistortedSmile]

Originally Posted by TCT

Always the same team winning and dominating makes things boring.

Especially if they (ACOFIA/WEC) hype thing up: oh, we have 14 cars that can win. This will be the most spectacular season ever.


In reality: the victoy for Toyota was never in doubt.
And only 2 cars can win. Not 14. Not even 6. Just 2.




GTE is not spec class but there it is interesting.

Yeah it's absolutely shocking that a team that has been in WEC since its inception, that went through the arms race that was the LMP1 heyday and currently has the most developed car is beating a bunch of new teams with new cars.

[TCT]

It is not a shock that they have the most developed car.


However, BoP or EoT or wahtver it is called shoudl be an equalizer and maken sure everybody has a chance.


That wordked (a bit) last year so alpine could be competitive and even win a few.


It does not seem to work this year.

[Sodemo]

I think the revised BOP after Sebring has basically handed Lemans win on a plate to Toyota. Having said that I am not a fan of BOP anyway. So if a team designs a better car they should be ahead.

[TCT]

Originally Posted by Bentley03

I'm sure it wasn't reported during the broadcast. Not good!

No it was not mentioned at the broadcast.



But I saw that Cadillac move at a strange angle aroudn the Jota car at one pitstop and I thought: that was close.
I would not be surprised if it was that moment

[DistortedSmile]

Originally Posted by TCT

It is not a shock that they have the most developed car.


However, BoP or EoT or wahtver it is called shoudl be an equalizer and maken sure everybody has a chance.


That wordked (a bit) last year so alpine could be competitive and even win a few.


It does not seem to work this year.

Neither Alpine or the Rebellion LMP1 they were running were brand new. You can't BoP experience or reliability, Ferrari, Porsche and Cadillac show good promise and have been getting better each race, we're just 3 races into the season, we should give them time before falling into S365 comment section tier doomposting.

[Steve McQ]

Furthermore, the fastest LMDh is quite obviously the Acura ARX-06 which is not racing in the WEC.

[sceptic]

Originally Posted by DistortedSmile

Neither Alpine or the Rebellion LMP1 they were running were brand new. You can't BoP experience or reliability, Ferrari, Porsche and Cadillac show good promise and have been getting better each race, we're just 3 races into the season, we should give them time before falling into S365 comment section tier doomposting.

Exactly.
BOP is a balance of potential, not a "you've got a terrible car / engine / driver, let's give you breaks to help you win".

The Ferrari is a fast car, but the team don't understand endurance strategy yet, and being on the wrong tyres at the start cost them dearly today.

The Porsche is a slow car but is getting reasonable results either through good strategy, or good luck or both.

The Peugeot is a terrible car that no strategy is going to save. Or they're sandbagging massively.

The Glickenhaus has had no development, and is falling further and further behind.

The Vanwall ...well it's hard to judge the car when the drivers and team seem so inept.

[TCT]

Originally Posted by sceptic

Exactly.
BOP is a balance of potential, not a "you've got a terrible car / engine / driver, let's give you breaks to help you win".

The Ferrari is a fast car, but the team don't understand endurance strategy yet, and being on the wrong tyres at the start cost them dearly today.

The Porsche is a slow car but is getting reasonable results either through good strategy, or good luck or both.

The Peugeot is a terrible car that no strategy is going to save. Or they're sandbagging massively.

The Glickenhaus has had no development, and is falling further and further behind.

The Vanwall ...well it's hard to judge the car when the drivers and team seem so inept.

That sounds like Toyota is the only car capable of winning.


So I guess you must be right.
Because that is what is happening. time and time again.


That is why I do not agree with this being a Golden Age or whatever they call it.


There is lots of cars yes, but no suspense for victory.
And if Ferrari gets it together, no suspense for 3rd either.


Then all other will have to fight for 5th.


Would you like that and be happy?
I don't.


And that is not what they (WEC/FIA/ACO) suggested in their promo at all.
They suggested we would have massive fights for victory between lots of different carts and teams.




So I am doubly disappointed now!

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by sceptic

The Ferrari is a fast car, but the team don't understand endurance strategy yet, and being on the wrong tyres at the start cost them dearly today.

Seeing how that car is run by AF Corse, I don't buy that for a second.

[sceptic]

Originally Posted by TCT

That sounds like Toyota is the only car capable of winning.


So I guess you must be right.
Because that is what is happening. time and time again.


That is why I do not agree with this being a Golden Age or whatever they call it.


There is lots of cars yes, but no suspense for victory.
And if Ferrari gets it together, no suspense for 3rd either.


Then all other will have to fight for 5th.


Would you like that and be happy?
I don't.


And that is not what they (WEC/FIA/ACO) suggested in their promo at all.
They suggested we would have massive fights for victory between lots of different carts and teams.




So I am doubly disappointed now!

I think Ferrari and Cadillac are both capable of winning at Le Mans. The car is fast enough.

But they need to stop making mistakes. Because Toyota are making very few mistakes, and capitalising on that.

[S griffin]

I think we should have a very open fight for the win at LM. I wouldn't want to predict it. Plenty of well prepared cars. Toyota can be beaten

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by TCT

That sounds like Toyota is the only car capable of winning.


So I guess you must be right.
Because that is what is happening. time and time again.


That is why I do not agree with this being a Golden Age or whatever they call it.


There is lots of cars yes, but no suspense for victory.
And if Ferrari gets it together, no suspense for 3rd either.


Then all other will have to fight for 5th.


Would you like that and be happy?
I don't.


And that is not what they (WEC/FIA/ACO) suggested in their promo at all.
They suggested we would have massive fights for victory between lots of different carts and teams.




So I am doubly disappointed now!

Isn't it just a bit early to be giving up on it? Of course Toyota were going to win and they will probably continue to for a while yet. As I've said too many times, you can't always expect new cars to be able to fight against established runners from the very start.

[Gingers4Justice]

Does BoP stand for Balance of Posting? Because if so, after reading the last couple of pages, I do agree that the BoP is pants.

[Mike E]

Part of the enjoyment, for me, is watching the story develop over the season. What these teams are doing is hard. They know it's hard and they know they are up against a serious opponent in Toyota.

The Toyota operation has no weaknesses. The team has been running at this level since they re-entered LMP1 in 2012. Their trackside operations are the class of the filed. The car is in its third season and is now well developed. Their drivers are all world champions and Le Mans winners. And they know they have a target on their back so their motivation is sky high. Of course they are winning. They deserve to.

And of course it won't stay that way. The others are already catching up.

[Mike E]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

Does BoP stand for Balance of Posting? Because if so, after reading the last couple of pages, I do agree that the BoP is pants.

Haha

[J Jay]

Bit of a low blow, G4J. From one teacher to another, we should be educating people about the nuances of endurance racing, especially when F1 seems to be heading in the diametrically opposite, "moment"-filled direction.

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Seeing how that car is run by AF Corse, I don't buy that for a second.

Then what has tripped them up, three races in a row? Getting used to the car could account for Sebring and Portimao, less so Spa. It's not likely that Toyota will make enough mistakes for Ferrari to keep up.

[Steve McQ]

I just went back to my small BoP follow-up file and actually current Toyota GR010 BOP is quite close to Spa 2021, with the exception of energy allowed per stint (reduced by 60MJ per stint vs 2021) and 4WD activation threshold (pushed up to 190kph vs 120/150 kph two years ago).

Remarkably, that car lap performance between 2021 and 2023 has stayed quite equivalent while :
- it has lost its "big" front wheels and the extra grip in the corners coming with it (once tires are at good temperature of course)
- front axle electric motors kick in later on
- differential is now less sophisticted than it was originally (and we saw how badly it hampered the GR010 at Monza last year)

I don't compare with 2022 where n°7 & 8 received +30kg and -20bhp "penalty", with which the car seemed to be 1 or 2" per lap slower than the year before.

My conclusion is that considering the three major performance setbacks mentioned earlier, the GR010 probably gained something like 1" minimum per lap at Spa in 2 years. All the other new guys in the class have at least this progress to get in their own cars, especially Ferrai, Porsche and Cadillac. Peugeot and Vanwall have much more in hand if they can develop a bit more regularly. With all the opertional gains to be made at each and every of those garages, we are not far away from a good BOP.

[Adam43]

That’s really interesting. Thanks.

I think the gain might have been a little more than 1”, but that’s not really based on any science. The other might have started from a higher, or lower base. Higher as they got to see the rules in action before entering. Lower because they are Peugeot.

The big thing (or rather small thing as the gaps as pretty small) that might be there is the whole Hypercar LMDh. But let’s see. Of the new teams the best is Hypercar and the next is LMDh. One of the, had to be better so statistically we can’t tell.

[S griffin]

It's all fascinating stuff. Amazing Toyota have been able to gain that bit extra. They are always looking for a bit of extra. However I'm sure the others can find a bit of performance gain. Personally I think the rules are fine the way they are. It's not the rules fault if some are caught out

Personally I think LM is in a good shape with the current rules. We've got a few top quality manufacturers and plenty of top class drivers too. LM this should be epic. The various classes are well subscribed, so I really look forward to it.

[Steve McQ]

Cadillac faster than Toyota n°8 ?

[Adam43]

I didn’t put the them on the same chart, but have the distribution of laps for them:

https://tentenths.com/forum/showpost...&postcount=239

https://tentenths.com/forum/showpost...8&postcount=33

The 8 was a lot slowr. More than the general gap between some of the different cars.

[joeb]

Random question about GTE bop. I read that the success ballast from these first 3 races gets removed for Le Mans. But does it go back on afterwards? and does Le Mans count towards the ballast in class or is it just a stand alone event?