FIA Homologation Papers & HTPs

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by PeterMorley

That's as amusing as some of Bauble's jokes!!

Far better than most!

But as Joe says, it's likely questions are being asked. What did a (type of) car achieve in period, what is it achieving now, and do the two relate...

[terence]

They were always a bone of contention from when first granted papers.The car was not available until sixty seven/sixty eight so how could they ever have been 'in period'.?
I understand that it was only after the constant badgering by one of the original specialist builders that papers were granted.
At least Alan and Chris took the championship over here for two years running beforehand,in a squeaky clean car (as checked by the German scrutineers.

[andy97]

Wikipedia (I know!) has the 1800gt introduced in 1964.

Nevertheless this thread may help explain some things!
http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=76394

[andy97]

Just to put the cat amongst the pigeons, I do fully understand the need for cars to be homologated and for certain events to only allow in cars that were homologated in period but I do wonder whether there is a case for an alternative system to allow cars that were not homologated in period!

Of course, there would have to be some sort of criteria that set the specs to basically just safety items rather than performance items so as not to disadvantage cars that were homologated in period!

Bear with me as I use an example - the Porsche 944 was never homologated for competition in period (with exception of the 220 turbo in to Group B) but it's disappointing that it can't be used now except in club events. The MSA has introduced a historic Tarmac rally championship for this year with age group classes for pre 1986 and pre 1990 cars. A 944 would be a great car for this series but.....isn't eligible! Tough, the purists will say, and I respect that but if there was a class that allowed cars like this to compete, but not for awards, then it could be a great way to introduce new people to the sport? As I suggest, cars would have to be specced with production brakes, dampers, power train etc and just stripped out to a defined weight and fitted with safety gear only. And probably run in their own class. Can of worms or a new growth category that allows in popular cars to compete that manufacturers saw fit not to homologated in the day?

I'll get my coat!

[terence]

Originally Posted by andy97

Wikipedia (I know!) has the 1800gt introduced in 1964.

Nevertheless this thread may help explain some things!
http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=76394

Hmmm,anyone EVER seen a B registered one.?

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by andy97

Wikipedia (I know!) has the 1800gt introduced in 1964.

I doubt the FIA would take anything on that site as gospel! Mind you, if they did, we could probably re-write history......

Sounds like UK Rallying is ploughing it's own furrow as usual. Stick to racing, sprints and hill climbs, where am sure a lot of non-homologated cars are welcome!

[zefarelly]

Most race series . . .generally referred to as club racing!

Originally Posted by andy97

Just to put the cat amongst the pigeons, I do fully understand the need for cars to be homologated and for certain events to only allow in cars that were homologated in period but I do wonder whether there is a case for an alternative system to allow cars that were not homologated in period!

[Brian A]

Originally Posted by terence

Hmmm,anyone EVER seen a B registered one.?

The Marcos 1800 was announced at the Racing Car Show in January 1964. By the end of the year they were producing 2 per week.

So the age is not the issue, but its lack of international history is.

Wonder if this is a new trend for "tightening up" on past exceptions, so what's next? Maybe Richardson heads on Formula Juniors

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Brian A

The Marcos 1800 was announced at the Racing Car Show in January 1964. By the end of the year they were producing 2 per week.

So the age is not the issue, but its lack of international history is.

Wonder if this is a new trend for "tightening up" on past exceptions, so what's next? Maybe Richardson heads on Formula Juniors

So wiki was right? Darn, would have put money on the info being 'manipulated'!

Steady on with your suggestion for next big thing- their championship is FIA sanctioned!

[andy97]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

Most race series . . .generally referred to as club racing!

Yes, of course, but I was thinking in terms of continental racing, for older cars such as the aforementioned Marcos, the Marcos 3000 and later, the Porsche 944, where they could race against cars of a similar ilk.

Plenty of people seem to want to race in Europe, but not many opportunities to do that regularly seem to exist for older cars unless they are homologated.

[andy97]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Sounds like UK Rallying is ploughing it's own furrow as usual. Stick to racing, sprints and hill climbs, where am sure a lot of non-homologated cars are welcome!

There are lots of significant differences between racing and rallying as I am finding out!

In many respects rallying is far more open and very libre when it comes to most events with often just 4 -5 simple engine capacity related classes and anything goes within each class, hence 2 litre Vauxhall engined sequential gearbox equipped escort mk2s competing against Darrians and Honda civics!

However in the "historic" series the. Homologation counts just as much as anywhere.

What rallying doesn't have is series for cars in age related classes like CTCRC Pre 1993 etc etc where sensible mods are allowed and similar (ish) cars can compete against each other on a fairly level playing field.

In rallying it's either "open" or its "historic".

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by andy97

Plenty of people seem to want to race in Europe, but not many opportunities to do that regularly seem to exist for older cars unless they are homologated.

Do they not have club racing as we know it on the mainland? I'm sure with research that opportunities to compete in a lot of the other Euro countries with non- homologated cars would be unearthed.....

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Do they not have club racing as we know it on the mainland? I'm sure with research that opportunities to compete in a lot of the other Euro countries with non- homologated cars would be unearthed.....

I know of a few mainland examples.

There are quite a lot of events in France which appear to operate on the American principle of if you bring a car we will find somewhere for you to use it.

There's a single seater club here in Belgium that doesn't require FIA cars and I think there's a similar club for saloon cars.

And there are various events in Germany for non-homologated cars, like youngtimers etc.

The problem seems to occur when someone wants to hold a championship, that is when the FIA appear to be able to step in and force their regulations upon them.

I've no idea how the licencing works when a 'foreigner' wants to join in.

[MGDavid]

back when I had the 924 I spoke to a few of the drivers doing the YoungTimer at the 'Ring and they all had FIA papers (and interior trim etc, they were more standard than my car).

[andy97]

I'm sure there are club races/ series for mon homologated classic cars, Mike, but I think Peter may have hit the nail on the head below.

Originally Posted by PeterMorley

The problem seems to occur when someone wants to hold a championship, that is when the FIA appear to be able to step in and force their regulations upon them.

I've no idea how the licencing works when a 'foreigner' wants to join in.

Interestingly, I was watching the "Legend Boucles de Bastonge (what used to be the Boucles de Spa)" classic rally live on Motors TV today and there were several non homologated cars competing, including Porsche 944 and 924S!

[MGDavid]

perhaps we should go rallying then Andy!
Relevant that next month I'm doing my first ever rally as a nav down at Bovington...

[andy97]

David, I've already sold my E36 M3 and bought a ubiquitous Mk2 Escort Tarmac rally car, albeit one with a 1600 8v Vauxhall engine!

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by andy97

David, I've already sold my E36 M3 and bought a ubiquitous Mk2 Escort Tarmac rally car, albeit one with a 1600 8v Vauxhall engine!

I remember Ford homologating that engine Andy, so you're all clear......

[zefarelly]

I thought all Escorts had a 2.5 duratorq engines and 7 speed sequentials ?

[andy97]

Most Escorts do seem to have Warrior, Vauxhall Red Top or Duratec 2 litre to 2.5 litre engines and 6 speed sequential gear boxes, but the really trick ones have 2.5 litre Millingtons, and all seemed to be described as "Group 4", even though that is a long way far from the truth!

Indeed the Escort folks get very irritated when someone points out that they are Not actually Group 4, and are modern technology facsimiles! As I said earlier, in rallying the rules are basically "open" in all but WRC , ERC or historic type categories.

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by andy97

Most Escorts do seem to have Warrior, Vauxhall Red Top or Duratec 2 litre to 2.5 litre engines and 6 speed sequential gear boxes, but the really trick ones have 2.5 litre Millingtons, and all seemed to be described as "Group 4", even though that is a long way far from the truth.

At least rallying has a category for cars with non homologated engines and boxes- It's when you find a 'Gp2' Escort in your class at a high profile race meeting has a 2.3-2.4 Connaught 'Pinto' or a 6 speed sequential that you start to lose the will.....

[Duddha]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

At least rallying has a category for cars with non homologated engines and boxes- It's when you find a 'Gp2' Escort in your class at a high profile race meeting has a 2.3-2.4 Connaught 'Pinto' or a 6 speed sequential that you start to lose the will.....

The organisers would have to be seriously dumb to accept this in a historic event..!

Funny is that here in France there was what everyone called "the hidden warrior" Mk1 Escort RS2000, with HTP and everything. For years, people had been complaining that the engine wasn't right, that the pinto was over bored, head was not a holbay one and so on... Then came the checks in June 2015 after an organiser decided to have a look at it. It was all legal ! But people still complained.

The real parameter was and still is the thing between the wheel and the seat..

[terence]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

At least rallying has a category for cars with non homologated engines and boxes- ...

Not that different to Historic racing then Mike.

[terence]

Originally Posted by Duddha

The organisers would have to be seriously dumb to accept this in a historic event..!

Funny is that here in France there was what everyone called "the hidden warrior" Mk1 Escort RS2000, with HTP and everything. For years, people had been complaining that the engine wasn't right, that the pinto was over bored, head was not a holbay one and so on... Then came the checks in June 2015 after an organiser decided to have a look at it. It was all legal ! But people still complained.

The real parameter was and still is the thing between the wheel and the seat..

Similar situation with the Tice Conoley Marcos last year.Everybody complaining it was too fast .Scrutineers decided to have a look insde the engine,lots of red faces around the paddock.

"Dont develope the car so its faster than you"When the car starts to feel not as quick,then develope it a bit further.

[andy97]

Originally Posted by terence

Similar situation with the Tice Conoley Marcos last year.Everybody complaining it was too fast .Scrutineers decided to have a look insde the engine,lots of red faces around the paddock.

Yes, but those red faces appear to have had their revenge now!