GT2 replaced by GT3 ..... ACO new idea

[JAG]

GT3 and GT2 are both performanced balanced.

If Aston Martin can produce a car that's as quick as the 997/430, for GT3 money, good on them.

[cmk]

Originally Posted by PorscheFanNo1

With GT2 and GT3 now almost identical, I say make it one class and throw it out of LeMans, the 2nd GT class is not needed there and GT1 is where the manufacturers should fight against each others, not in a lower class, leave that to the privateers.

The way you've phrased this, there should be no room for GT privateers at Le Mans. Why would you possibly suggest this as a good idea?

[Dario911]

Now 997 GT2 RSR is faster than 997 GT3 Cup S, as the same way F430 GT2 is faster than F430 GT3.
But with some modifications on their bodyworks, some little electronical improvments, GT3 cars could be closer to GT2 specs. I'm sure, there should be more interest for the factories, because many other (Aston, Lamborghini, Corvette, Ford, BMW, etc.) would be interested to take place in the match.
Lower costs would mean more interest and competitors.

[AU N EGL]

Some electrical imporvements? The wireing harness and ecu's are completly different between the GT2 and GT3 cars about $50,000 difference

The GT3 cars tend to have the stock ECUs and wiring harnesess, where the GT2 cars have the Bosch Motorsports Motronic MS 5.2 unit ( 21,000 Euros ) racing units in the Porsches That is plus wiring harness and data sensors additional. AND software to read everything.
http://www.bosch-motorsport.com/cont.../html/2953.htm

The Ferrari's have an Italian ECU counter part

[cmk]

Basically, it seems Dario is saying that if you built a GT2 car from the same chassis as a GT3, it would be a GT2, and that's all you have to do. Well...no kidding. So what?

So many of these ideas about scrapping a class and then changing the other classes end up sounding the same - get rid of something and then turn something else into exactly what you just replaced. Talk about 'dig a hole, then fill it up' type logic.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by cmk

Basically, it seems Dario is saying that if you built a GT2 car from the same chassis as a GT3, it would be a GT2, and that's all you have to do. Well...no kidding. So what?

:lol:

Not even close. that is why some drivers should stay out of engineering

World difference between the Porsche GT3 street car and the RSR ALMS car. Not to mention the few 100 K eruo difference.

[Félix]

But look at the laptime difference between GT2 and GT3... especially at Monza (the gap would be even smaller at LM). That's on spec tires - anyway not works-developed - and with cars costing around half as much. Bring in pro drivers and you won't see much difference; except maybe 10 different cars to choose from instead of 2-3.

[AU N EGL]

I agree more cars would be better to choose from. What ppl dont see is the replacemnet parts costs.

Less expesive cars, might need more replacement parts.

Over all the idea of changing GT3 for current GT2 is on the right idea.

But still racing is very expensive no matter what car a team chooses. Some times inexperince teams with a big money sponsor is not safe in the field

[Subaru_WRX_STi]

GT3 repalcing GT2, Ford will be mre than happy, the "Matech" is completely dominating now !

[cmk]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

:lol:

Not even close. that is why some drivers should stay out of engineering

World difference between the Porsche GT3 street car and the RSR ALMS car. Not to mention the few 100 K eruo difference.

I don't think you understand me. You start with the same basic chassis design. Then you build a racecar out of that design, from nearly the ground up. What you choose to fit it out with, at every level, depends on the regulations to which it is being built. The modifications are certainly not 'little', and if you want a GT2 car, you build a GT2 car. If you want to call it an upgrade of a GT3 design, well, call it what you want. It is what it is. Why we'd want to axe GT2 and then change the GT3 spec to look like GT2 is beyond me - the name is irrelevant.

[Dario911]

Reiter engineering is working on the GT2 version of the new Lamborghini LP560/4. I think it will be a very interesting car. But I think, with its future cost, it will be very hard to sell. I hope it should be more competitive than its sister Murcielago by Reiter, so it could fight against Porsche, Ferrari and Aston.
But I don't understand why does Reiter is working to a Gallardo GT2 only now, because the rules may change in the next months!
Anyway, I hope to see a third hard competitor in GT2 class!

[CTD]

well slower cars at Le Mans isn't a good idea!
The Prototype drives already complain about the massive speed difference in the Gt2 cars and P1 cars.
But otherwise it's a really good idea, the Lmp2 should do the same, allowing smaller teams to run, because that is the whole point whit P2 and Gt2, to have a class for the private teams!
But what happened with the Gt2 Corvettes?, the danish Markland car, couldn't get fast enough because they needed money, but what about the Official Corvette Gt2 attempt?

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by cmk

I don't think you understand me.

I do understand you. The Manufactures are not going to the whole change thing. This is why the manufactures are involved in the rule making process this time.

Dont think we will see huge changes in GT rules when they or the ACO releases them come November this year.

Plus since the new or 2010 rules have not been released, how much are manufactures going to build new cars now? they wont.

and Yes having a big speed disparity on the long straight of any circuit is dangerous.

[Félix]

GT2 cars with 480 horses are slower on a straight than GT3 cars with 550 horses... at Le Mans that would make the problem smaller.

Put that GT3 engine in a GT3+ chassis with more weight than a GT2 and less aero to keep them slower in the curves and you have a nice class I think.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by Félix

GT2 cars with 480 horses are slower on a straight than GT3 cars with 550 horses... at Le Mans that would make the problem smaller.

Put that GT3 engine in a GT3+ chassis with more weight than a GT2 and less aero to keep them slower in the curves and you have a nice class I think.

Darn close. GT2 engines were restricted to ~ 425-430 BHP depending on wt and tire size used.

New rules, will most likely be Over and Under 500 BHP ( SEA measured ) Over 500 BPH for GT1 and lots of aero body parts and under 500 BHP for GT2 with minimal aerobody parts.

[JAG]

GT3 is basically a power to weight formula, which allows many differing cars to be competitive.

The Viper has big power as stock, but are allowed this advantage as they run pretty heavy.

Something like the 430 is less powerful but has a weight advantage.

In GT2 all cars need to be 1125kg and approx 500bhp to be competitive, which costs money to extract the power or lose the weight.

If you split GT1/GT2 based on 500bhp+/-, you will have direct road car rivals running in different classes.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by JAG

If you split GT1/GT2 based on 500bhp+/-, you will have direct road car rivals running in different classes.

Yes, and that would be great. and IMO what GT should be,

We will see come Late Nov on the new 2010 rules

[JAG]

I'd rather cars compete against their real world rivals.

I want to see a single GT class with multiple major manufactuers and cars such as the 430, 911, XKR, C6, M3, NSX and Skyline competing as the headline class, not be relegated to a support act behind niche 'GT1' Koiningseggs and Zondas.

[AU N EGL]

Not all the GT cars are the same HP. The Zonda and K car are specialty cars and most likey never build enough of them to race.

[JAG]

That's my point, road car bhp shouldn't matter, a Viper is more powerful than a 430, but performance wise they are similar and compete in the same road car market.

It makes sense they race against each other in a single GT class, as they do in GT3, with a sliding power/weight scale.

I.e. 450bhp - 1100kg, 500bhp - 1200kg, 550bhp -1300kg.

You can legislate out 'speciality' cars by demanding 500 - 1000 road car examples.

[AU N EGL]

We do Power to wt ratios in our NASA racing. Works very well

[Purist]

The competition in GT2 is "nice", but there needs to be that place for a bit more insanity in GT racing, which is what GT1 is for. The GT1 Corvettes have that evil aggressive look, and especially in the case of the C5-R, remind my father and I of Can-Am racers to some extent. The Lou Gellotti GT2 Corvette does NOT have the same impact. The only GT/GT2 car that I think has ever even approached the beautifully brutish affect of the GT1s was the 2001 Schnitzer BMW M3 GTR.

I know it's not allowed at Le Mans, but I definitely think the best looking car out of the four classes is the Maserati MC12. And I've heard comments that that would be a sort of look that would be appreciated in a prototype with road car cues, but that won't come to pass. For an out and out prototype, I'm sure it's not aerodynamically efficient enough in certain respects, so the only place such a machine would get built is for a GT1 class. You simply can't get that awesome impression with GT2s, and if you tried to pull it off, it just wouldn't come out right, period. And it would be a real shame to never see some of those top-line sports cars/supercars on the track in their full glory.

It's not such a difficult concept. If you can create something truly awe-inspiring, you WILL get people hooked. If just hope the rulemakers and manufacturers haven't forgotten that.

[AU N EGL]

New GT rules hints
http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dl...1078/1036/FREE

"Instead of accepting that, the FIA has adopted a compromise that will keep GT2 alive and also allow manufacturers to homologate a kit to upgrade a GT2 car to compete against the GT1s. The new GT1 rules will create heavier, low-technology cars using more standard parts. The FIA hopes that this will allow engineering specialists or "tuners," and not just manufacturers, to develop GT1 cars.

snip
under the new rules, any car whose engine displaces more than 5.5 liters is categorized as a GT1. "

[dxk1]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

New GT rules hints
http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dl...1078/1036/FREE

under the new rules, any car whose engine displaces more than 5.5 liters is categorized as a GT1. "

I can't wait for the GT1 Cadilac or Lincoln!

DK

[JAG]

Specialist tuners and a World Championship do not mix.

FIA GT is a total irrelevance to major manufacturer's, it's now little better than Open GT or Belcar.

Only the FIA series needs a headline GT1 class, the ACO series have P1 (Evo), manufacturer's interested in running pure GT's are happy with 500bhp GT2 cars, which IMO look great and are now quicker than first generation GT1's such as the Viper and Lister.

Who's going to tell Porsche, Ferrari, Aston Martin, BMW and Chevrolet they are wrong, and the FIA and Ratel, with their track record, are correct?