[BTCC] BTCC 2023 season discussion, News and Rumours!

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

I still think that Supertouring could have been sustained at or near the level it was for another 10 years, if the right promotion was behind it. I believe it was £10M was the Prodrive / Ford bill for the 2000 season, when you compare the top budgets of F1 at the time which were near £200M, it does offer good value for money, the problem is the comparative lack of exposure. I am not sure if this was a problem with TV or the series not promoting itself or the car makers not doing some of that, I am not sure, maybe a bit of everything. Lets face it, £10M would be a bargain if it had live TV and was beamed to every motorsport viewing household in Europe and or the world.

I'm not sure that it would have been sustainable.

S2000 became too expensive in the ten years that followed Super Touring, and that was much cheaper than the £10M you outline above.
Currently, some entrants are struggling to meet a budget 1/10th of the Super Touring cost.

The simple truth is that once manufacturers started to leave, the finances were not in place to sustain Super Touring.
IMO - If the regulations had been retained, then we would not have seen privateers able fill grids and we could have seen the series folding. It was only by adopting much cheaper regulations that has kept the series alive. We have no manufacturer involvement now - and it is only by adopting regulations such as BTC-T and S2000 that allowed private teams such as WSR and TD to keep going.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by mattcanary

I've learned something new. British Isles includes Republic of Ireland. Every day's a learning day!

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I'm not sure that it would have been sustainable.

S2000 became too expensive in the ten years that followed Super Touring, and that was much cheaper than the £10M you outline above.
Currently, some entrants are struggling to meet a budget 1/10th of the Super Touring cost.

The simple truth is that once manufacturers started to leave, the finances were not in place to sustain Super Touring.
IMO - If the regulations had been retained, then we would not have seen privateers able fill grids and we could have seen the series folding. It was only by adopting much cheaper regulations that has kept the series alive. We have no manufacturer involvement now - and it is only by adopting regulations such as BTC-T and S2000 that allowed private teams such as WSR and TD to keep going.

I think you perhaps have missed my point.

I agree, given the state of play in the 90s, £10M was unsustainable, but that's only because someone in a marketing department determined that the return on investment wasn't worth it any longer. If the potential return had been increased with better sponsor exposure, better TV coverage, then all of a sudden that £10M looks like a bargain.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

I think you perhaps have missed my point.

Possibly -

Originally Posted by Sodemo

If the potential return had been increased with better sponsor exposure, better TV coverage, then all of a sudden that £10M looks like a bargain.

I'm not sure that was possible - the regulations were used in many series both nationally and internationally, including the highest profile series' of Touring Car World Cup, BTCC, Super Tourenwagen Cup and Australian Super Touring Championship.

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

I think you perhaps have missed my point.

I agree, given the state of play in the 90s, £10M was unsustainable, but that's only because someone in a marketing department determined that the return on investment wasn't worth it any longer. If the potential return had been increased with better sponsor exposure, better TV coverage, then all of a sudden that £10M looks like a bargain.

Better TV coverage? Outside of F1 what is better ? Free to air , live and all support races? Also back in Supertouring days it was sold Worldwide - even Airlines bought

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

I still think that Supertouring could have been sustained at or near the level it was for another 10 years, if the right promotion was behind it. I believe it was £10M was the Prodrive / Ford bill for the 2000 season, when you compare the top budgets of F1 at the time which were near £200M, it does offer good value for money, the problem is the comparative lack of exposure. I am not sure if this was a problem with TV or the series not promoting itself or the car makers not doing some of that, I am not sure, maybe a bit of everything. Lets face it, £10M would be a bargain if it had live TV and was beamed to every motorsport viewing household in Europe and or the world.

you really think that having all the teams and manufacturers each spending around £10m a year on a domestic championship would be sustainable

you forget that they did and it proved it wasnt

[sceptic]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

you really think that having all the teams and manufacturers each spending around £10m a year on a domestic championship would be sustainable

you forget that they did and it proved it wasnt

It wasn't sustainable in the UK, and withdrawal of all the manufacturers because they couldn't justify the cost proves that.

The same happened with DTM: Once one manufacturer pulled out, the value for the other two fell dramatically, and when the second pulled out, the third had no choice but to do the same.

You also have to remember the law of diminishing returns. Every year that you do the same thing, the marketing value of that thing reduces.

SEAT is a great example. In its first year in the BTCC the brand recognition rose by 2000% and new car sales were growing by >5% per year. But by 2008, sales had dropped back to 2001 levels - the BTCC and SEAT Cupra Championship were no longer a valuable marketing tool.

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by sceptic

It wasn't sustainable in the UK, and withdrawal of all the manufacturers because they couldn't justify the cost proves that.

The same happened with DTM: Once one manufacturer pulled out, the value for the other two fell dramatically, and when the second pulled out, the third had no choice but to do the same.

You also have to remember the law of diminishing returns. Every year that you do the same thing, the marketing value of that thing reduces.

SEAT is a great example. In its first year in the BTCC the brand recognition rose by 2000% and new car sales were growing by >5% per year. But by 2008, sales had dropped back to 2001 levels - the BTCC and SEAT Cupra Championship were no longer a valuable marketing tool.

Plus after the move from RML to the works team it was never a Championship contender

[thetool]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

Plus after the move from RML to the works team it was never a Championship contender

RML only ran the cars in 2004. Northern South took over for the remainder of SEAT's time in the championship. Jason Plato was a championship contender to a greater/lesser extent every year the SEATs ran.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

Plus after the move from RML to the works team it was never a Championship contender

*Cough* 2007 would think otherwise. A SEAT was leading the championship going into the final event by nine points and and by one point until the final race.

A SEAT was also 2nd going into the final event in 2006 and 2008 too.

[porsche962fan]

and he would have gotten away with it too, if it weren’t for a meddling italian

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

Plus after the move from RML to the works team it was never a Championship contender

So if it wasn't a title contender in 06-08, what does that make it's one season with RML in 04? Mediocre?

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by S griffin

So if it wasn't a title contender in 06-08, what does that make it's one season with RML in 04? Mediocre?

[Ant25]

Dynamics to use the new Honda next year?

[Evantra]

Originally Posted by Ant25

Dynamics to use the new Honda next year?

It's not sold in the UK yet, I don't think? They're no longer supported by Honda unfortunately, so have no reason to run the new Civic than any other car.

I reckon they'll stick with the FK8 for another year.

The Astra is the model most likely to get replaced in terms of age, and arguably performance.

[crmalcolm]

https://twitter.com/MattNealRacing/s...79326027857921

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I'm not sure that was possible - the regulations were used in many series both nationally and internationally, including the highest profile series' of Touring Car World Cup, BTCC, Super Tourenwagen Cup and Australian Super Touring Championship.

The European Touring Car Championship continued with Super Touring for one more year until 2001, giving rise to such beauties as the 156 Super Tourer. Even they gave up on the class after then though.

Paul Radisich discusses the evolution and increasing sophistication of the Mondeo Super Tourer over the years here and takes examples of the increasing complex Ford for spin, likening the final model as almost having the traction of an all-wheel-drive car: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwsECCzn82w

[Whether it be through rule creep and competitors getting more concessions, or freedoms that were always in the rules but were only exploited when more money came to do so? How did that creep happen? ]

However long before 2000, the British championship was already struggling with finding enough privateers able to afford to run (or even wanting to run) the increasingly expensive and sophisticated Super Touring vehicles.

It seems privateers felt they had little chance against the works teams.

The BTCC came up with their rules, the FIA came up with the Super 2000 rules (IIRC, the FIA rules were more production-based, the BTCC rules more pragmatic and standardised), and those rules were of course later harmonised in the BTCC IIRC.

Going to a lower-cost, privateer-friendly vehicle was probably the right move, particularly the second move to NGTC regulations where technical development on the cars by the teams (suspension, engine etc) is very limited AFAIK, allowing (AFAIK) privateers to run the cars without necessarily needing to have CNC milling machines, engine dynos or large amounts of engineering capacity.

[porsche962fan]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

The European Touring Car Championship continued with Super Touring for one more year until 2001, giving rise to such beauties as the 156 Super Tourer. Even they gave up on the class after then though..

The European Touring Car Championship was held with super tourers in 2000 and 2001

and let's be honest it was formed on the rotten corpse of the italian super turismo which folded at end of 1999 season due to lack of entries (they barely could get 10 cars in most races....) and also from corpse of 1999 STW (like the works Honda team which went from STW to ETCC) , the irony is the 1999 STW was actually still in good health and produced some great racing and controverises !!!! works cars from Honda, Opel , Alfa Romeo and semi works cars from Audi... (as works 4WD was banned by this point) and plenty of privatters on the grid , mostly with Vectras , Alfas and Audi.

now the 2001 ETCC races are on youtube and frankly they are mostly BORING , because the quality difference of the small field is just too much , 2 full works teams and the rest bunch of privateers with no chance, 2000 season by comparison was better supported and racing was more exiting

[tux]

Originally Posted by thetool

RML only ran the cars in 2004. Northern South took over for the remainder of SEAT's time in the championship. Jason Plato was a championship contender to a greater/lesser extent every year the SEATs ran.

and now Northern South are a classic car company in NZ

https://www.exotics.co.nz/seat-cupra-championship/

[thetool]

Originally Posted by tux

and now Northern South are a classic car company in NZ

https://www.exotics.co.nz/seat-cupra-championship/

I imagine the only continuity that iteration had with the team that ran the BTCC SEATs will be Grant Clearwater himself.

[Evantra]

Ginetta to leave the TOCA package.

https://twitter.com/btcc/status/1572...634711041?s=21

A massive shame and leaves a big hole in the support paddock. Moving to the British GT package, so perhaps we'll get some of their current support series - Porsche Sprint is the only one that comes to mind, which barely manages a 10 car grid?

[Robshillito1990]

Originally Posted by Evantra

Ginetta to leave the TOCA package.

https://twitter.com/btcc/status/1572...634711041?s=21

A massive shame and leaves a big hole in the support paddock.

The start of the demise. No other series out there that will provide the action that Ginetta series provide over a weekend or the entry numbers for that matter.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Robshillito1990

The start of the demise. No other series out there that will provide the action that Ginetta series provide over a weekend or the entry numbers for that matter.

Interesting. If I'm reading your post correctly - you are saying this is the start of the demise of the TOCA package?

If so - what confidence do you have that TOCA would not be able to find another suitable support series?

[Robin Marriott]

The juniors are a huge loss, I can’t think of anything else which will replace them.

Not so fussed about the Supercup and to be honest it makes much more sense for them to be on the BGT schedule.

[SSmith]

Originally Posted by Evantra

Ginetta to leave the TOCA package.

https://twitter.com/btcc/status/1572...634711041?s=21

A massive shame and leaves a big hole in the support paddock. Moving to the British GT package, so perhaps we'll get some of their current support series - Porsche Sprint is the only one that comes to mind, which barely manages a 10 car grid?

Goodness that is a shock! One wonders if the SRO deal connects with things that have been discussed elsewhere - streaming and screen time. We normally have 1 GT4 Supercup and 1 Junior race on ITV(4), sometimes 2 maximum. I'd imagine with SRO every race will be on YouTube potentially expanding the potential audience outside the UK and expanding Ginetta's global outreach - I know they've been trying to get into the US racing scene with SRO in GT4 America, GT America etc., and Asia must be a target too.

I would be surprised if Porsche Sprint Challenge (assuming it survives into next season) joins full time. I honestly don't think its a strong enough series.

The BTCC announcement says series' (plural) so they intend to fill both support slots. As for other decent club series that operate at the quality standard TOCA would probably want - Mini Miglias/Mini Se7ens comes to mind. Maybe Caterham? Radicals?

GT Cup, Britcar (incl. Praga), and Trucks are headliners in their own right and have longer races so that rules them out. GB3 and GB4 are in 'battle' as it were with British F4 so wouldn't make the jump to TOCA. TCR UK is a 'rival' series and seems to be making some progress on its own without joining TOCA.