[BTCC] NGTC: Which cars do you wanna see?

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by Icebaby

Arguably the best looking touring car in the modern era, love to see Alfa back.

IMO the Saab has it beat. Possibly the Scirroco as well, though that is a hatchback so Im a bit ambivalent about it.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

And that's where it starts to become less production based.

Either way, touring cars are a long away from traditional "touring cars" - modified racing prepared versions of any car that is not a higher end GT car.

It will good to keep a lot of this touring car 'DNA' of very imperfect, not low, not sleek, not mid-engined, not rwd/awd racing cars with the front wheel drive I guess.

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

The thing with more power is that too much more and it'll be getting towards the level where RWD is a good idea to stop understeer.

if I was going over the magic 300hp mark I'd go for saloons. 475hp Clios, Leons and Corsas would look silly. 475hp 3-series, Evos, Focuses and Exeos would look rather good (with the right aero kit rules - think BTC-T with full width rear wings and 1.9m wide body kits and that's what I'm getting at).

I didn't mean that much power! I meant that WTCC cars should have something like 350-380PS versus current 280-300PS. I agree that RWD or 4WD is compulsory from 450hp onwards. And I also agree that so much power doesn't fit with B- or C-segment hatchbacks, but large touring cars (Merc C/E-Class, Audi A4 / A6, BMW 3er / 5er, Jaguar XF, Lexus, IS / GS...) or fat silhouette cars (Nascar, DTM, etc). But that's not the essence of WTCC anymore.

Something that I've heard discussing everywhere is the relation between power and grip. Argentine TC2000s, WTCC Super 2000s and current-gen DTMs (outside touring car racing, I'd mention Indy cars) are said to be too easy to drive, and therefore are suggested to get more power or lose downforce.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

Something that I've heard discussing everywhere is the relation between power and grip. Argentine TC2000s, WTCC Super 2000s and current-gen DTMs (outside touring car racing, I'd mention Indy cars) are said to be too easy to drive, and therefore are suggested to get more power or lose downforce.

They can't be that easy otherwise Ralfie would be doing better in his Merc.

With too much grip is it right to say that over-driving the car is bad, as corner speeds are high, but power to get back up to speed after making a mistake is low?

The racing seems pretty good anyway, as long as they don't race on circuits that are too large.

[Mike Sheraton]

i too would love a bit more speed, maybe a bit of supertouring speed??
how much hp did they put out, and as i asked alan gow on the btcc forum, he said the NGTC cars will be quicker than s2000, but just how much quicker is my question???

[V8 Fireworks]

300 (320-330?) hp in the super tourers but they only weighed around 1000 kg.

Obviously car body shells in the 80s/early 90s when the rules were devised were much much lighter than modern car bodyshells, now weighed down with all that crumple zone 5-star rating stuff.

So what's a current realisitic minimum weight?

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

[Current DTM cars] can't be that easy otherwise Ralfie would be doing better in his Merc.

No matter how easy it is to drive a certain race car, it will always be hard to drive faster than a bunch of great drivers - as it happens in DTM and most top-level categories. Ralf seems to have trouble in keeping up with his rivals because they are better used to these rides or something, not because the cars are hard to keep on the track.

[dyewat808]

Originally Posted by davyboy

I've been thinking about this the last few days and I've come to the conclusion that excluding RWD and thereby excluding BMW is just too much. Touring car racing without BMWs is just not the same. I understand Alan Gow's point about driver safety, but I believe that could have been overcome. Number one on any 5 car list for me would have to be the BMW 3-series.

I agree. For Gods sake keep the BMW's - they make touring cars IMO

[duke_toaster]

It's now been confirmed that RWD cars will be allowed. With the rules I would have considered it a perfect fit to allow 4WD machinery converted to RWD, but that isn't going to happen.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

It's now been confirmed that RWD cars will be allowed. With the rules I would have considered it a perfect fit to allow 4WD machinery converted to RWD, but that isn't going to happen.

That's great news. It was fantastic to watch the bimmers in Thruxton at the weekend. Just need to unwind this first gear reg. and use something else to negate their startline advantage [e.g. rolling starts].

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by davyboy

That's great news. It was fantastic to watch the bimmers in Thruxton at the weekend. Just need to unwind this first gear reg. and use something else to negate their startline advantage [e.g. rolling starts].

Why do they need to do that?

If thats the case then they should have their rear wheel drive penalty reduced. Part of the reason for the increased weight for RWD is due to their start "advantage", if that is no longer there, they should reduce the base weight for RWD. If they were to move to rolling starts for the races they should run FWD and RWD at the same weight.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

If thats the case then they should have their rear wheel drive penalty reduced. Part of the reason for the increased weight for RWD is due to their start "advantage", if that is no longer there, they should reduce the base weight for RWD. If they were to move to rolling starts for the races they should run FWD and RWD at the same weight.

That is already almost the case in BTCC. RWD 6-speed weighs only 10kg more than FWD 6-speed. In reality however the parts needed to transfer the power to the rear wheels weigh in at about 35kg on an BMW 320SI, so in essence the FWD cars are already driving around with 20-25kg of ballast compared to RWD. How much more weight do you want to stack onto the FWD cars to make sure the RWD cars win?

[duke_toaster]

The question is if anyone will develop an NGTC BMW or not - I wouldn't be surprised if someone did, however. From the pics, it looks like the development car for the regs will be a Vauxhall Insignia.

Realistic minimum weight? I'd guesstimate 1150kg or so, more likely to be more than less. These cars are actually a bit more aerodynamically sophisticated as well, with flat floors for example. They've also got double wishbone suspension and some other wizardry that should make them faster than S2000. I'm looking forward to when they get properly unleashed, perhaps if they made up the bulk of the field they could do that earlier and have Super 2000 as a Production Class ...

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by stedevil

That is already almost the case in BTCC. RWD 6-speed weighs only 10kg more than FWD 6-speed. In reality however the parts needed to transfer the power to the rear wheels weigh in at about 35kg on an BMW 320SI, so in essence the FWD cars are already driving around with 20-25kg of ballast compared to RWD. How much more weight do you want to stack onto the FWD cars to make sure the RWD cars win?

Right, I did not know that the BTCC RWD penalties were different to that of the WTCC.