[Team] Williams: Do they have a spare tub?

[S griffin]

I tend to agree more with Eddie, although we don’t hear much Irv the Swerve anymore

[djinvicta]

Irvine?? He fully admits he's living the life after being a No2 !! Who wouldn't? He's gone from F1. Good for him..

[BSchneiderFan]

I always admired Fast Eddie’s honesty. He said openly that being Schumacher’s team mate was like being hit over the head with a cricket bat every other weekend, but that he was as quick as anyone else on the grid. Probably not a wildly inaccurate assessment. But he did become a bit too fond of his own opinions for a while.

Aaaaanyway, back on topic. Another dismal qualifying for Williams. When will the pain end? Will it?

[Moneyseeker]

Lance knackered the new front wing and they don't have a spare as they only have one for each car! Hardly what you expect from a top team and he will start from the pitlane...

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[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Moneyseeker

Lance knackered the new front wing and they don't have a spare as they only have one for each car! Hardly what you expect from a top team and he will start from the pitlane...

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You say that, but I recall some years ago at RBR they only had one new type front wing which was on Vettel's car whilst Webber had to race with the older one. And similar has happened along the pit lane.



So, it's not that unusual.

[peebee2]

Yes, but that Red Bull case was a new wing rushed to the track.

Williams is a wing raced at the previous GP. How on earth could they not make spares since then? Even Caterham weren’t that amateur!

[Moneyseeker]

Both cars ended flat last 2 laps down, pitiful..

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[S griffin]

They need a reorganisation

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by S griffin

They need a reorganisation

That might take money that they don’t have spare right now...

Team needs a B chassis and one does not seem to be on the drawing board let alone in build....

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Team needs a B chassis and one does not seem to be on the drawing board let alone in build....

Would they be better off going back to last years chassis? Is that even an option? (not sure how big the regulation changes were between last year and this)

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

Would they be better off going back to last years chassis? Is that even an option? (not sure how big the regulation changes were between last year and this)

You would have thought so.. maybe the Benz’s packaging is different year on year but it would have to be worth developing a Halo for it and at least testing it in a Friday session...

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by F1Guy

If the rumours are correct, Williams are set to be the Mercedes 'B' team next season. This deal will include Mercedes suspension components, and a 2019 Mercedes gearbox, apparently.

This is a big move for Williams, who have always said, apart from the engine, the entire car will be built in-house. They have always fancied themselves as a constructor.

Will it pay off?

If I remember correctly there was discussion awhile back in that the team should very much do this. With people talking about how crazy it was for Williams to try to "do it all" in face of the current competition. That they were spreading themselves too thin. That they need to focus on specific areas and outsource others. I think it is the right move for them if this is to come to be. Of course that would imply redundancy for some who currently create some of those components that in the future will be outsourced.

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Claire Williams To Go?

So while everyone has focused on the JV quotes (I don't blame JV for sharing his opinions, but rather the journalists who feel the need to quote him) there were a few interesting quotes in that very short article...

Claire in responded to the "B Team" moniker by saying they are not a B Team, but then went on to say...

"But the collaborations we see now, we have to explore those. We don't want to be dinosaurs -- the once-giant of formula one who refused to change and adapt."

There is also the quote from Frank as recounted by Claire...

"Claire, we've had shitty times before and got through it. You have to keep pushing"

My take on both of those is that... The main priority is survival of the team. Pay drivers and component outsourcing is the price to pay.

In the short term this means loosing the ability to create your own gearbox ( as one example), but that is also not an irreversible change. Those capabilities can be re-hydrated in the future. But getting to the point that the team collapses and dissolves (or is bought out and is no longer run by the Williams family) that is much harder to undo.

Richard

[S griffin]

I do hope Williams get through this, hard to think only four seasons ago they locked out the front row in Austria

[BSchneiderFan]

The problem is that, sort of the opposite of Haas, they’re a second division team operating with the personnel of a first division one. Letting people go and downsizing must be hard to contemplate, both on a humanitarian level and in terms of ambition, but I fear it’s necessary, at least for a while. One step back, two steps forward, hopefully.

[GTRMagic]

As a publicly listed company, you might wonder at the application of continuous disclosure rules/laws about any of the possible changes mentioned here...

[BSchneiderFan]

Can you elaborate?

[Mekola]

Perhaps Jacques Laffite could help.

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

That might take money that they don’t have spare right now...

Team needs a B chassis and one does not seem to be on the drawing board let alone in build....

Who knows if they have the budget to build a B car and in anyevent, in order to do that they would need to fully understand what they need to change on the current car and I am not sure they are there yet. Sooner or later a bean counter at Williams will look at where they are and take a pragmatic decision that the season is a write off and to focus resources on the 2019 car. They must have spent millions trying to make the 2018 car work.


As I see it the following points are worth mentioning.


Was PL, the right choice, on paper I am sure that CW thought that bolting in a key part of the race and championship Mercedes team into Williams would be a landmark moment for them and a Williams return for PL, who perhaps saw/sees himself as filling the Patrick Head 'void' to a certain extent. However, the one problem with bringing in someone from a vast organisation like Mercedes, is that is not always 100% clear who was responsible for the 'success' and you can't neccesarily pluck one person from that organisation and make an impact in yours.


A works team v a private teams is a bit like a supermarket chain v a corner shop - let me explain. As a Tesco or Sainsbury, you know that a certain % of what you invest in stock will end up as waste, you will always try and mitigate that, but factored into your budget and plan is that you will spend money on things that will end up in the bin. As a corner shop, you can't afford waste, you can't afford invest in the range and depth of stock that might end up in the bin, so you are cautious.


This is what is is like with Mercedes v Williams, Mercedes F1 will invest in design time, production/materials and wind tunnel and sim time, some of which will end up in the bin as the concept or part is ulitmately determined as not good enough to go on the car. Williams has to spend it's money more cautiously, it can't end up with too many or maybe any front wings in the bin (for example)


Taking account of the above and using Williams as the corner shop in our analogy, as CW do you hire a senior manager from Sainsbury to drive your conrer shop forward or do you look at a similar sized busienss that is well run, or even better run than yours and employ that person. In the case of F1, what Williams should have done is to hire the designer from Force India - who is used to working on a budget, punching above their weight and has knowledge of outsourcing that may come in handy too.


That, IMO is where Williams have gone wrong, no disrespect to PL who is a very smart and acomplished guy, but it is much harder to replicate that success without the team and resources behind you and they hired the wrong guy for them. Part of this is Williams belief that they are still a top team, will still challenge for wins and championships, still need produce everything themselves.



I think we are seeing some recognition of a change in this from CW recently, she quite rightly says I don't want us to be a B team, but I don't want us to be the once great team that refused to change.


I would look at what Mercedes can supply, I would look at running a Mercedes junior driver as part of a package, I would ask myself, reallisitically, can we design and build a better rear end and gearbox than Mercedes 1,000 staff and virtually unlimited resources can. Will that buy us some laptime and save some resources to spend elsewhere on the car?


In the recent past, some weakness on the Williams cars has probably been masked by the Mercedes engine, that was head and shoulders above, now that is not the case, so a very poor car with a less dominant engine as exposed their weakness.

[VIVA GT]

An interesting (and I feel accurate) assessment of the situation Mr Moneyseeker. I also found it interesting this morning to read that Williams and Force India are planning to trial a 2019 specification front wing at this weeks testing, yet there is no mention of any of the better funded teams trying such a thing. Could this mean the Williams have already given up on this years car and are putting all of their efforts into the 2019 car already?
EDIT: I now see that RedBull are also trying a 2019 specification front wing!

[ASCII Man]

I wish people would stop using random abbreviations.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by ASCII Man

I wish people would stop using random abbreviations.

A good point American Standard Code for Information Interchange Man!

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

A good point American Standard Code for Information Interchange Man!

OK!....

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

Can you elaborate?

In a traditional listed business, if you find out your core product is faulty and the revenue for current year and future years is at fundamental risk, it is often a listing rule requirement of most share exchanges to share said information with the market, who can then choose to restate the value of the share price on that exchange.

To not share said information when it may be available from sources within the team or elsewhere may constitute selective informing which is also against the listing rules in many exchanges.

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

In a traditional listed business, if you find out your core product is faulty and the revenue for current year and future years is at fundamental risk, it is often a listing rule requirement of most share exchanges to share said information with the market, who can then choose to restate the value of the share price on that exchange.

To not share said information when it may be available from sources within the team or elsewhere may constitute selective informing which is also against the listing rules in many exchanges.

I suppose the financial effects from the 2018 performance are not yet clear, but can potentially be:


Loss of FOM revenue compared to previous years (which will be quite marked if they finish last in the WCC)
Impact of the results of 2018 in replacing Martini as title sponsor and losing or gaining other sponsors


Loss of Lance Stroll income from driver fees and the replacement thereof


Presumably any of the above if it happens will not manifest itself until the 2019 year end figures?

[Nononsensecapeesh]

How embarrassing would it be if there are no substitutions before the season is out and Sergey ends up as the sole non-scorer as well as Williams finishing last?