[Official] Canadian Grand Prix 2019: Grand Prix Weekend Thread

[Anyopenroad]

This entire debate is happening because there's a wall on the outside of that turn. On the majority of corners at the majority of tracks Hamilton would simply have driven round the outside, taken the lead and gone on to win. We'd all then be discussing Vettel making yet another mistake under pressure and throwing away a win.

For that reason, irrespective of the minutiae of the rules and steering inputs, I believe the result was just. This is the utter, absolute pinnacle of the sport, where tiny mistakes are ruthlessly punished. Vettel deserved to lose because he made the mistake. Brutal, I know, but those are the standards expected of a driver with legitimate world title aspirations.

[Compromised]

Originally Posted by Anyopenroad

This entire debate is happening because there's a wall on the outside of that turn. On the majority of corners at the majority of tracks Hamilton would simply have driven round the outside, taken the lead and gone on to win.

Interesting.

If Hamilton went round Vettel with all four wheels over the white line, then what?

Letter of the law (as SVs penalty was applied) LH would receive a penalty, but a bit of common sense would say race on.

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by Compromised

Interesting.

If Hamilton went round Vettel with all four wheels over the white line, then what?

Letter of the law (as SVs penalty was applied) LH would receive a penalty, but a bit of common sense would say race on.

No, because he would avoiding a collision, which would have been caused by SV making a mistake.

[Compromised]

Originally Posted by JamesH

No, because he would avoiding a collision, which would have been caused by SV making a mistake.

Avoiding a collision by overtaking?

[Purist]

ASCRUK, it's called we don't try too hard, but mainly concern ourselves with the blatant offenses. The rules aren't there to punish honest mistakes, and if we want guys to be willing to continue to push hard enough that they might make said honest mistakes, the rules can't be enforced that way.

And if you don't want to take my word for it, take Mario Andretti's.

No, AOR, it's that we want to see the race, see the on-track result reflected in the final scoring, and I think a lot of us are wondering where it ends. Will they penalize someone for spinning because another driver had to evade? But then, why won't they penalize someone for forcing another driver onto the paved run-off? Again, it gets to my earlier comment about trivializing track limits when it's easy and convenient to do so, but then being like, "...but he'd run that guy into the wall otherwise...", when there's grass and an actual physical barrier. Also, why was Ricciardo not penalized for forcing Bottas to evade, and lift off, when he'd make his late moves on the long stretch out of the hairpin?

And I find the "If Hamilton did this, then the mob would..." to be bull. The only other driver out there with the sheer number of ardent supporters to be able to crucify Hamilton is Verstappen; it certainly isn't Vettel. In terms of diehard fans, Leclerc might be up to third at this point. And if the tension in the bulk of the fanbase that wants/is desperate to see someone/anyone but Mercedes/Hamilton win is that high, well, that's not a good sign.

Going on from there, somewhat, hammer every Hamilton lock-up as much as you do anyone else's "mistake". And I don't know that anybody has "legitimate" title aspirations anymore; this latest result just puts another nail in the coffin, with the message of "the Mercedes can't be beaten".

And no, I don't really have a standout favorite in any series right now. I suppose Verstappen is the closest to it in F1 for me right now. Regardless, I'm already well into the realm of hopeless inevitability that Mercedes, and probably Hamilton, will win everything, indefinitely.

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by Purist

No, AOR, it's that we want to see the race, see the on-track result reflected in the final scoring, and I think a lot of us are wondering where it ends. Will they penalize someone for spinning because another driver had to evade?

Took me a while to realise I was AOR! I've become a type of music :-/

Obviously the entire situation is very sad for the sport and no-one thinks it's a good look. I was merely arguing that, aside from that, the actual end result was just because it was Vettel who made the mistake. Of course the stewards don't take that or the wider ramifications for the sport into account so the point is tangential to discussion about the merits of the penalty.

No, you don't penalise a driver who spins and forces another to evade because the spinning driver has been punished by losing places. Hence my observation that had there been no wall and Hamilton had been able to pass, Vettel's 'punishment' would have been to lose the place. There probably would have been no investigation at all.

Originally Posted by Purist

Going on from there, somewhat, hammer every Hamilton lock-up as much as you do anyone else's "mistake".

Should a Hamilton lock-up or other mistake result in him losing a place or losing a chance to overtake then absolutely, he would be to blame for the consequence of the mistake. In fact didn't that happen recently? Hamilton chasing Bottas down and locking up to lose momentum and thus the chance to overtake? His fault alone.

It's worth adding that the stewards are very clear that they punished the additional steering input from Vettel which took him to the right, after he had regained control. Thus it's not the mistake itself which is being punished, it's the subsequent deliberate action.

Originally Posted by Purist

And I don't know that anybody has "legitimate" title aspirations anymore; this latest result just puts another nail in the coffin, with the message of "the Mercedes can't be beaten"...Regardless, I'm already well into the realm of hopeless inevitability that Mercedes, and probably Hamilton, will win everything, indefinitely.

I can't help but feel that a lot of the anger over this is a result of that despair rather than a cold hard analysis of the stewards' actual decision. But in any event, my point was that Vettel is a driver (and Ferrari is a team) who enter each season aspiring to win titles and each race intending to win, and the standards expected of them are therefore utterly unforgiving. Both Vettel and Ferrari have consistently fallen below those standards at crucial moments and Vettel's mistake here was another example of that, a fact which is being lost in the furore over the decision.

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by Anyopenroad

I can't help but feel that a lot of the anger over this is a result of that despair rather than a cold hard analysis of the stewards' actual decision. But in any event, my point was that Vettel is a driver (and Ferrari is a team) who enter each season aspiring to win titles and each race intending to win, and the standards expected of them are therefore utterly unforgiving. Both Vettel and Ferrari have consistently fallen below those standards at crucial moments and Vettel's mistake here was another example of that, a fact which is being lost in the furore over the decision.

Personally, I think deep inside Vettel's anger was not directed at the stewards but at the fact that he again made a mistake at a crucial moment, which is contributing to the fact he's not going to be WC with Ferrari this way.

I must be hard being a 4 time WC thinking you're the best in the world and then by your own contribution show that your not as good as you thought when your not in a superieur car.

[Born Racer]

Originally Posted by Anyopenroad

No, you don't penalise a driver who spins and forces another to evade because the spinning driver has been punished by losing places. Hence my observation that had there been no wall and Hamilton had been able to pass, Vettel's 'punishment' would have been to lose the place. There probably would have been no investigation at all.

Yes, that seems to be the case, but do you know if there is anything in the regulations about that? Playing Devil's Advocate here, is there a case for saying that a driver should still be penalised for re-entering the track in a dangerous manner and causing another driver to take evasive action if that evasive action leads to them getting past and getting the advantage? Because the principle that it was a dangerous action is still the same.

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

Playing Devil's Advocate here, is there a case for saying that a driver should still be penalised for re-entering the track in a dangerous manner and causing another driver to take evasive action if that evasive action leads to them getting past and getting the advantage? Because the principle that it was a dangerous action is still the same.

Yes, assuming Vettel's actions (meaning, the additional steering move to the right, which is what he was punished for) were identical then presumably he could have been subject to the same sanction even if there had not been a wall and Hamilton had gone by. In practice I doubt this would have happened, but you are right that by the letter of the rules the end result (Hamilton past or not) is not relevant to the 'offence'.

[chillibowl]

Courtesy of someone on reddit...rear mounted camera from Norris' car. Kind of a cool angle of the failure.

https://streamable.com/x0pe5

[S griffin]

Really could see the load being put on it before it broke properly

[wnut]

A rather good analysis of the Vettel penalty imo from Chainbear.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvBKv5jPvrk

[wnut]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

Courtesy of someone on reddit...rear mounted camera from Norris' car. Kind of a cool angle of the failure.

https://streamable.com/x0pe5

Magnificent heal and toe technique going down through the gearbox under braking!

[wnut]

Originally Posted by wnut

Magnificent heal and toe technique going down through the gearbox under braking!

Heel - nitwit.

[Taxi645]

I wonder if it would be better and/or practical if the lowest possible penalty is give up position rather than a 5 second penalty?


The penalty would read: "Car ** should, within the next three laps, let car ** pass. Failing to do so will result in a five second penalty added after the race."


In this case it would've given Vettel the option to regain position in a fight. Where as with the five second penalty he would've had no options. The result would've likely be the same (because of the faster Mercedes), but at least the fight wouldn't have been taken away from him completely and he could have done it at a point at which it would've given him the best opportunity to regain the position.

[Skam85]

Don't mind that at all.

[S griffin]

Of course you can let things go if you think they are not worth punishment, but you need to keep a standard penalty when you do punish someone, otherwise you get accused of bias

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by Taxi645

I wonder if it would be better and/or practical if the lowest possible penalty is give up position rather than a 5 second penalty?

The penalty would read: "Car ** should, within the next three laps, let car ** pass. Failing to do so will result in a five second penalty added after the race."

In this case it would've given Vettel the option to regain position in a fight. Where as with the five second penalty he would've had no options. The result would've likely be the same (because of the faster Mercedes), but at least the fight wouldn't have been taken away from him completely and he could have done it at a point at which it would've given him the best opportunity to regain the position.

Yes. This.

The other huge benefit is that it ensures (assuming the penalised driver complies) that the first car across the line is the winner. Perhaps the worst aspect of the Canada incident was Vettel taking the chequered flag with him and everyone else knowing it was false. The graphics even flashed up a Vettel win until the timing correction kicked in.

[Born Racer]

Well, if there's one thing we can take from this, it is that the FIA will no longer be accused of being Ferrari International Assistance.

[greentrumpet]

If it looked like a title could be at stake that would be a reasonable deduction.

[RWill2073]

Originally Posted by Lancsbreaker

I have to say that my reaction as Vettel rejoined was that it was unsafe......Vettel saying he had no alternative seems to have forgotten that he has an accelerator pedal under his control.......


And Vettel now appears to be on the point of boycotting the ceremony....

Location checks out....

So I just finished the race. First time on here since before the race weekend. I havent read past page 3 of this thread yet, just caught the first instance of what I assume will be a theme throughout the rest of the thread. If you're from certain regions, I fully expect this type of defense.

Just a huge joke of a decision that ruined the race. Every announcer basically hand waved the fact that the stewards were looking into it. Said things like "if that is penalized, we might as well pack it up and go home." Fully agree.

He didn't gain an advantage. He lost ground on track. Just like the pit lane penalty at Monaco, the only recourse for avoiding penalty is to allow the other cars nearby to go past without fight. So what is the point? Also completely ruined the lazt 15 laps or so. Killed any racing we would have gotten to the end since Hamilton knew he could just park it within 5 seconds. Fun stuff that is....

How is it not completely apparent that Hamilton is a huge phony at this point? I've pointed stuff out before, but here it is again. Says after the race that it wasnt the way he wanted to win. Except he immediately cried on the radio for the stewards to look at it. Says all the time he relishes a fight on the track between him and Vettel. Yet.... Took the fight right out of it by crying to the officials. Nkt the first time he has shown himself to be a phony, won't be the last.

Also, is there anyone with a bigger horseshoes up his ass? Yes, he helps make his luck. But it is way beyond statistical anomaly at this point how much just seems to go his way. And a huge kudos to the stewards for further cementing the championship within the first 1/3 of the season, so I can actually maybe skip some sessions rather than making it a point to watch everything televised and really care. Really helps me to know that Mercedes will have the political clout to overrule a rare struggle of a weekend.

Then Hamilton tries to say that if the wall wasnt there he could have gone through. That's kinda the point. Not every track has miles of runoff to make your job easier. Kinda adds to the challenge at a track like this. He should know. If the walls weren't there at Monaco, verstappen wouod have gone through, too. God what a waste of time watching that race turned out to be. Except for the Vettel reaction. Appreciate that, but wish he had called Hamilton out about wanting a fight between the two of them only to whine to the stewards. Oh well.

Now on to reading pages 4 through the end, and seeing the coincidence of certain posters finding ways to defend Hamilton all being from similar regions.

[RWill2073]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

The stewards did indeed review Vettel's telemetry and that seems to have been a major factor in their decision. See here: https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14...nalty-decision
I had noticed the last jink right too on one of the video replays, after Vettel had apparently gathered up the initial incident.

I am somewhat at a loss to understand the majority on here and other places in Vettel's favour, except perhaps that the world is full of Ferrari-fanboys and Ham-haters. Vettel went off the track due to a driving error. He came back on in a manner that was clearly unsafe. He got a penalty. If drivers are not penalised for unsafe driving, racing will turn into a very expensive, very dangerous version of banger-racing.

The incident reminded me of my only ever visit to a karting clerk of the course. My son (he's on this forum, he might confess) ran off track and then barged back on as quickly as possible in order to minimise the loss. He was excluded. We didn't moan. We didn't rearrange the track furniture. We just accepted that he had done wrong in the heat of the moment and learnt from it.

Location checks out...

[S griffin]

Magnussen says the Steiner did a good job of 'shutting me up.' Probably just as well.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by RWill2073

Location checks out....

So I just finished the race. First time on here since before the race weekend. I havent read past page 3 of this thread yet, just caught the first instance of what I assume will be a theme throughout the rest of the thread. If you're from certain regions, I fully expect this type of defense.

Just a huge joke of a decision that ruined the race. Every announcer basically hand waved the fact that the stewards were looking into it. Said things like "if that is penalized, we might as well pack it up and go home." Fully agree.

He didn't gain an advantage. He lost ground on track. Just like the pit lane penalty at Monaco, the only recourse for avoiding penalty is to allow the other cars nearby to go past without fight. So what is the point? Also completely ruined the lazt 15 laps or so. Killed any racing we would have gotten to the end since Hamilton knew he could just park it within 5 seconds. Fun stuff that is....

How is it not completely apparent that Hamilton is a huge phony at this point? I've pointed stuff out before, but here it is again. Says after the race that it wasnt the way he wanted to win. Except he immediately cried on the radio for the stewards to look at it. Says all the time he relishes a fight on the track between him and Vettel. Yet.... Took the fight right out of it by crying to the officials. Nkt the first time he has shown himself to be a phony, won't be the last.

Also, is there anyone with a bigger horseshoes up his ass? Yes, he helps make his luck. But it is way beyond statistical anomaly at this point how much just seems to go his way. And a huge kudos to the stewards for further cementing the championship within the first 1/3 of the season, so I can actually maybe skip some sessions rather than making it a point to watch everything televised and really care. Really helps me to know that Mercedes will have the political clout to overrule a rare struggle of a weekend.

Then Hamilton tries to say that if the wall wasnt there he could have gone through. That's kinda the point. Not every track has miles of runoff to make your job easier. Kinda adds to the challenge at a track like this. He should know. If the walls weren't there at Monaco, verstappen wouod have gone through, too. God what a waste of time watching that race turned out to be. Except for the Vettel reaction. Appreciate that, but wish he had called Hamilton out about wanting a fight between the two of them only to whine to the stewards. Oh well.

Now on to reading pages 4 through the end, and seeing the coincidence of certain posters finding ways to defend Hamilton all being from similar regions.

Ah. I get it. It was all Hamilton's doing....... Vettel was totally saintly in this incident which I hadn't appreciated at first. Glad you put me right on that.

[RWill2073]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Ah. I get it. It was all Hamilton's doing....... Vettel was totally saintly in this incident which I hadn't appreciated at first. Glad you put me right on that.

Admittedly, I was more aggressive than I should have been, posting as soon I finished the race, after reading posts defending hamilton, but it is so bizarre how he has a following unlike any other except verstappen that finds ways to shrug off anything he does while pointing at others and saying "if Lewis did that...." And as I scroll through reading, I read those posts and think "I bet they're from...", check the flag or location, and sure enough... It is too predictable.