[WEC] Kolles Prototype

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by Adam43

And that’s not considering the brake cooling, the Villeneuve fun, …

Say fun to Dillmann…

[veeten]

Originally Posted by Mike E

I would take a Pipo over an Alfa any day of the week

If you were talking about engines previously manufactured by Alfa Romeo, but for around the last decade they no longer build them. Their power trains are part of the same FIAT group as Lancia, and Maserati, as they get their V6/V8 from a single source: Scuderia Ferrari SpA. Simple rebadging of them saves money.

[merak1974]

Originally Posted by veeten

If you were talking about engines previously manufactured by Alfa Romeo, but for around the last decade they no longer build them. Their power trains are part of the same FIAT group as Lancia, and Maserati, as they get their V6/V8 from a single source: Scuderia Ferrari SpA. Simple rebadging of them saves money.

Not correct that the FIAT group cars (now called Stellantis after the FCA-PSA merger) all get their V6/V8 engines from Ferrari. Maserati makes their own V6 series of engines (the Nettuno engine used, among others, in the MC20 and the new Gran Turismo).

[Adam43]

Peter Collins of ex-Lotus fame is helping the team out to see what they can do to improve.
"They know they at they are 50hp down - that's just what it is - but there are potential" - Eurosport 3:41 to go in the race.

[Steve McQ]

The car is standing 20 seconds longer than anyone else at each pitstop. Need to cool down the machine ?

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Steve McQ

The car is standing 20 seconds longer than anyone else at each pitstop. Need to cool down the machine ?

Interesting - well spotted.

Cooling is a real problem if this is their solution as it would be better to get running and get air flow through the car. Unless it is something where the start just doesn't work because of it.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Peter Collins of ex-Lotus fame is helping the team out to see what they can do to improve.
"They know they at they are 50hp down - that's just what it is - but there are potential" - Eurosport 3:41 to go in the race.

I heard that comment too. I guess less power from the engine is better than the engine trying to turn itself inside out all the time. I was hoping there would be some more elaboration on what parts could be improved, but guess we will have to wait till next year!

[FIRE]

What next for Dr Colin Kolles and his team?

I don't expect them on the entry list for FIA WEC.
On the other hand they are a loyal entry.

Today Job van Uitert tested their car at the rookie test.

[veeten]

...get a better... powertrain. That... would... help.

[Steve McQ]

Could not see the race : why did they lose 45 minutes in the pits at the end ?

[chernaudi]

Changed coils, spark plugs and fuel injectors to fix a power loss problem.

[Steve McQ]

Thanks. Not the kind of things we are used to see often in endurance racing those days...

[S griffin]

Especially not in ones that aren’t 24 hour races

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by veeten

...get a better... powertrain. That... would... help.

Will be interesting to see how the HWA engine in the Isotta Fraschini performs.

[chernaudi]

The Gibson engine did well in the Rebellion cars, though that was a slightly different engine format vs LMH. I suspect that it has something to do with how Kolles integrated the engine into the chassis and it's not an easy fix.


Or maybe Gibson didn't tweak the engine to optimize it for LMH vs LMP1 (maybe because Kolles didn't pay for development--unless you're an OEM, which you'd be "paying yourself" more or less--companies don't do stuff for free). Kolles is strange as a team in that they seem to spend a fair chunk of money to do their own thing, then seem to cheap out on the details.


Anyways, I'm unaware if the electronics and fuel injection system changes fixed anything or not.


But if it's development that's the issue, ol' Colin will probably have to foot the bill with Gibson, Judd, or whoever else. If it's an integration issue, it's probably the car's inbuilt induction system, and that'll take modification/redesign, which will cost time and money.

[tomcug]

Originally Posted by veeten

...get a better... powertrain. That... would... help.

Get a better... chassis with proper cooling. That would help too

This was discussed before and it's very unlikely that the Gibson engine is the sole source of their problems. It's a bad car.

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Or maybe Gibson didn't tweak the engine to optimize it for LMH vs LMP1 (maybe because Kolles didn't pay for development--unless you're an OEM, which you'd be "paying yourself" more or less--companies don't do stuff for free). Kolles is strange as a team in that they seem to spend a fair chunk of money to do their own thing, then seem to cheap out on the details

There was some work on fuel consumption with Alpine but that was at 560-600 hp power target. Colin probably thought like "whatever, let's buy the engine, install it, see what happens"

[Steve McQ]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

If it's an integration issue, it's probably the car's inbuilt induction system, and that'll take modification/redesign, which will cost time and money.

They wouldn't be the only ones to have "jokers" and homologation stuff to deal with this winter.

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Kolles is strange as a team in that they seem to spend a fair chunk of money to do their own thing, then seem to cheap out on the details.

That’s the problem, no one seems to know how much they are putting in and it’s impossible to gauge what performance the car should have as a result. The team has struggled to be taken seriously a lot of the time

[joeb]

Originally Posted by tomcug

Get a better... chassis with proper cooling. That would help too

This was discussed before and it's very unlikely that the Gibson engine is the sole source of their problems. It's a bad car.


There was some work on fuel consumption with Alpine but that was at 560-600 hp power target. Colin probably thought like "whatever, let's buy the engine, install it, see what happens"

I believe the poor cooling has been reported before and Graham again reported it post race from Bahrain:

The car was running down on power for much of the race, even beyond the reported power deficit that team sources have been reporting for much of the season as the car struggles with cooling issues,

[broadrun96]

Hit a few things on track and "accidentally" open up the bodywork a bit, couldn't hurt

[veeten]

Makes one believe that this was an attempt to upgrade an LMP1 and include cosmetic changes. The machine is just not in the same league as either the LMH's or the LMDh's, and it will take either more money to make the changes or necessitate a new build, which will be even more costly.

Kolles either waited too late or misjudged what he had, and it's a harsh lesson.

[Steve McQ]

The car is probably not that good, but there is no way it is an upgraded version of the LMP1. Front suspension geometry is completely different, starting with mounting points, and the carbon tub seems to be thinner than its older brother. If the heart is new, the whole package is too.

[tomcug]

Originally Posted by veeten

Kolles either waited too late or misjudged what he had, and it's a harsh lesson.

Not the first one, not the last one for Colin

Originally Posted by joeb

I believe the poor cooling has been reported before and Graham again reported it post race from Bahrain:

Yet another report of this issue, they really need to work on improving the chassis. If we get to see the Kolles entry in 2024 ofc.

[veeten]

Well, somebody took my advice...
If you have an account with autosport.com, check out the article. For it seems that Vanwall will be replacing the Gibson for a turbo unit "of known quantity".

[chernaudi]

If the problem with the Gibson engine was cooling (in other words, a subpar installation), a turbo engine will be worse. Remember the issues that Courage had (prior to being absorbed by Oreca) when they went from the Mugen 4.5 liter NA V8 to the AER 3.6 liter turbo V8 in the LC70.