[Rules] Future Rule Changes

[Number4]

Originally Posted by dsg

How can something that happens less than 6% of the time during the NASCAR season be normal?

100 % normal on road courses. Ovals are restricted by a fence. Pedant.
NASCAR run more than ten series. 75% of the Euroseries is on a road course.
Their track limits rule amongst other things makes for quality racing. Something that I have not seen in F1 for some time.

[old man]

I have just read Ben Anderson's 8 part "What is F1" on the Autosport web and in this Anderson has spoken to many of the great and good in F1, drivers, team owners, managers, technical folk and so on. They all express much the same opinions as we read in the threads on this forum, they do know of and see the same problems.

The main thought I have after reading it is that we need future rule stability rather than future rule changes, we need to allow the teams to embrace the rules and get the best out of them not keep chopping and changing. Changes to money distribution would help teams do this of course.

Two things do need changing I feel as one of the recurring themes is spectator interest in its widest sense, both at the circuits and on TV.

The first of these is access, it is said in the piece that cars and drivers should not be locked away in boxes and I was pleased to read this as it reflects my thoughts expressed elsewhere. Lewis Hamilton is probably the most visible driver away from the paddock, a fact many do not like but, just as with David Beckham in soccer, he is recognisable to more than just the fans and this should be encouraged IMO.

Secondly I feel we need more variety at the Grand Prix meetings, certainly in Europe. Races for GP3, GP2 and GP1 (sorry, F1) are for similar cars and there to project a ladder but should we not include more than just a Porsche race? BTCC was at one time the closing race at the British GP, it would bring other spectators. Why not DTM at the German race and similar events at others, cross fertilisation?

[VIVA GT]

I agree with all of that above, especially adding more 'different' races to a Grand Prix meeting.
To be honest, there seems to be so little going on over a Grand Prix weekend compared to when I started visiting the British GP in the late 70's.
F1 car running has been reduced in the days running up to the weekend, and certainly less happens now on the Sunday.
Admittedly looking back through my rose-tinted spectacles but I'm sure I've seen something like this on a race day:
Formula One un-timed warm up in the morning, then a Formula 3 race and some sort of Celebrity Challenge race, eventually the Grand Prix which was followed by the BTCC and a Historic race. In addition to the races, there were also air displays (Red Arrows, Vulcan, Concorde, the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight, and Pitts Specials stunt planes), plus often things like driving around the track on two wheels and motorcycle stunts too sprinkled in-between the races to keep everyone entertained.
How does a British Grand Prix Day timetable look now?

[Greem]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

How does a British Grand Prix Day timetable look now?

SUNDAY

07:15 FORMULA ONE MEDICAL INSPECTION

07:30 07:45 FORMULA ONE TRACK INSPECTION AND TRACK TEST

08:05 GP3 SERIES PIT LANE OPEN

08:10 GP3 SERIES PIT LANE CLOSED

08:15* 08:50² GP3 SERIES SECOND RACE (15 LAPS OR 30 MINS)

09:10 GP2 SERIES PIT LANE OPEN

09:15 GP2 SERIES PIT LANE CLOSED

09:25* 10:15² GP2 SERIES SECOND RACE (21 LAPS OR 45 MINS)

10:35* 11:10² PORSCHE MOBIL 1 SUPERCUP RACE (13 LAPS OR 30 MINS

11:15 12:05 FORMULA ONE PADDOCK CLUB PIT LANE WALK

11:30 FORMULA ONE DRIVERS’ TRACK PARADE

11:40 PROMOTER ACTIVITY F1 LEGENDS PARADE LAP TBC

11:45 12:15² FORMULA ONE STARTING GRID PRESENTATION

12:00 FORMULA ONE MEDICAL INSPECTION

12:10 12:20 FORMULA ONE TRACK INSPECTION

12:20 AIR DISPLAY THE RED ARROWS

12:30 FORMULA ONE PIT LANE OPEN

12:45 FORMULA ONE PIT LANE CLOSED GRID FORMATION

12:46 FORMULA ONE NATIONAL ANTHEM

12:47 AIR DISPLAY THE RED ARROWS FLY PAST

13:00* 15:00² FORMULA ONE GRAND PRIX (52 LAPS OR 120 MINS)

Followed by the track 'invasion' for the podium presentation.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

How does a British Grand Prix Day timetable look now?

This year's timetable:

08.15 - 08.50 GP3 15 lap race
09.25 - 10.15 GP2 21 lap race
10.35 - 11.10 Porsche 13 lap race
11.30 F1 Drivers' Parade
11.40 F1 Legends' Parade
11.45 - 12.15 F1 Starting grid presentation
12.20 - 12.42 Red Arrows Air display
12.46 National Anthem
12.47 Red Arrows Fly past
13.00 - 15.00 F1 52 lap race
Thereafter, a permitted track invasion, plus entertainment on the stage.

Although it may be nice to wish to see other racing series on the programme, I think that we have to be fairly realistic that the BTCC, DTM, etc. are major attractions in their own rights, and it is unlikely that they would want to pay second fiddle to the F1 circus. That may have been OK 20 or so years ago, but they've all become prima donnas in the meantime. And would there be room for Jason Plato to land his own helicopter amongst all the F1 flying machines.

And as I mentioned in the Silverstone thread, the vast majority of the spectators on the Sunday were there only for the GP; they had absolutely no interest in other races; even the BRDC grandstand at Luffield and the Silverstone Racing Club's grandstand were empty right up to until about 30 minutes before the start of the GP itself.

As an aside, both the Typhoon on Saturday and the Red Arrows on Sunday were slightly disappointing as they now are severely restricted on what they can perform over the circuit. Most of the airborne action too place outside of Silverstone's perimeter, a sad consequence following the incident at Shoreham.

P.S. Graham's obviously a quicker typer than wot I am

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Number4

I expect this picture will induce much foaming of the mouth, and gnashing of teethes among some of you guys.
To millions of others it is perfectly normal.

for first corner after the start or to avoid an incident i dont think anyone has a problem with run offs being used.

but you pic has more cars in it then an F1 race though...for the most part the issue in F1 is when a car is the only one in the corner and the driver still feels the need to exceed the white lines/use the run off. in all sports allowances are made for when a player is forced out of bounds vs when they voluntarily go out of bounds.

but hey if F1 had 20plus cars all going through a corners at the same time on a regular basis then i would accept the premise of Wolff's argument that the track needs to be wider.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by old man

Secondly I feel we need more variety at the Grand Prix meetings, certainly in Europe. Races for GP3, GP2 and GP1 (sorry, F1) are for similar cars and there to project a ladder but should we not include more than just a Porsche race? BTCC was at one time the closing race at the British GP, it would bring other spectators. Why not DTM at the German race and similar events at others, cross fertilisation?

certainly like the idea of having the support races which reflect the F1 ladder system (such that it is) included on a GP weekend but that also speaks to the real problem as well.

a GP weekend is too expensive and no amount of value added via other categories can make up for this.

it might have been you who alluded to this earlier, but the costs of attending for 2 people is ridiculous...more so if one wants to bring their kids.

general admission is cheaper but the track is so large and the vantage points so limited that one often just spends their time looking up at the jumbotron...thats hardly engaging and often amounts to nothing more than a very expensive day of walking in a park.

as much as i like turns in my racing, i actually have to give a tremendous amount of credit to the oval racing series because the nature of stadium seating offers both affordability and superior vantage points to see all of the action. its very nature makes it fan friendly.

this may be an issue f1 cannot address.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

...as much as i like turns in my racing, i actually have to give a tremendous amount of credit to the oval racing series because the nature of stadium seating offers both affordability and superior vantage points to see all of the action. its very nature makes it fan friendly.

this may be an issue f1 cannot address.

I think the stadium sections at COTA (US) and Autódromo Hermanos RodrÃ*guez (Mexico) are attempts at solving this problem. But you are correct in that oval racing has a strong natural advantage from an ability to spectate.

Richard

[old man]

Mike is of course quite correct about the other series I mentioned being major attractions in their own right, Knockhill will be full this weekend, but the fact is that paying spectators at many F1 meetings are voting with their feet. 57,000 people is a good crowd for most meetings but in F1 terms it is poor and cost is a major factor but there are other reasons I think.

Why does the British GP get a better crowd?

I also agree with comments about oval racing's viewing advantage, the only successful oval racing we have in the UK is BRISCA but these are small venues and although I have never seen any figures I suspect 10,000 would be a good crowd? Rockingham was an attempt to get major ovals going but failed for all sorts of reasons and the circuit is, I think, mostly used with an infield section. If there are full oval races there I don't know about them.

The fact remains that TV is a better option in many countries and to get people to travel to circuits, perhaps stay in a hotel and pay good money to get in we have to offer them a better experience than they get at home.

[Greem]

Originally Posted by old man

Mike is of course quite correct about the other series I mentioned being major attractions in their own right, Knockhill will be full this weekend, but the fact is that paying spectators at many F1 meetings are voting with their feet. 57,000 people is a good crowd for most meetings but in F1 terms it is poor and cost is a major factor but there are other reasons I think.

Why does the British GP get a better crowd?

Like it or not, a lot of it is down to The Hamilton Factor. I was operating the light panel on the start/finish straight this year and (certainly on Friday) there were far more first-time spectators there who spent time asking what we were doing, what things were in the pits, what "that car" was (the medical car doing hot laps!) and so on. When I say far more, the fact that I noticed was significant in and of itself.

What can't also be separated out specifically is the fact that F1 is still, largely, a British affair and is being gently marketed as such in certain places.

I also agree with comments about oval racing's viewing advantage, the only successful oval racing we have in the UK is BRISCA but these are small venues and although I have never seen any figures I suspect 10,000 would be a good crowd? Rockingham was an attempt to get major ovals going but failed for all sorts of reasons and the circuit is, I think, mostly used with an infield section. If there are full oval races there I don't know about them.

Rockingham is mostly run, as you say, using the two variants of the International Super Sportscar Circuit (ISSC and ISSCL - long); that's the one BTCC fans will be familiar with, running from turn 4 through turn 1 and thence onto the infield circuit. The only things that run on the oval competitively these days are the pickup trucks who are having 4 sets of 3 rounds there this year. On days when they run, support races use the ISSC(L) and the circuit is reconfigured for each session as necessary.

The fact remains that TV is a better option in many countries and to get people to travel to circuits, perhaps stay in a hotel and pay good money to get in we have to offer them a better experience than they get at home.

Can't argue with that.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

I agree with all of that above, especially adding more 'different' races to a Grand Prix meeting.
To be honest, there seems to be so little going on over a Grand Prix weekend compared to when I started visiting the British GP in the late 70's.
F1 car running has been reduced in the days running up to the weekend, and certainly less happens now on the Sunday.
Admittedly looking back through my rose-tinted spectacles but I'm sure I've seen something like this on a race day:
Formula One un-timed warm up in the morning, then a Formula 3 race and some sort of Celebrity Challenge race, eventually the Grand Prix which was followed by the BTCC and a Historic race. In addition to the races, there were also air displays (Red Arrows, Vulcan, Concorde, the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight, and Pitts Specials stunt planes), plus often things like driving around the track on two wheels and motorcycle stunts too sprinkled in-between the races to keep everyone entertained.
How does a British Grand Prix Day timetable look now?

That's pretty much how I remember the British GP in the mid '70s to the mid 80s. They usually had a celebrity race as well. I've still got the programmes for most of those races, particularly Brands Hatch as that was my 'local' circuit.

Brands Hatch was also very good for viewing, as the Indy track was in a natural amphitheater. They also had a big display board, on the slope behind Cooper Straight, which showed the first 6 car positions.

[old man]

Interesting that Greem thinks we had a lot of new blood attending Silverstone. This prompted me to say one thing in the regulations that could be changed and would benefit the newer spectator is the display of car number. I have been following F1 for over 60 years and find it difficult sometimes to identify a car so a new spectator can be forgiven for some confusion. The cockpit sides almost hide the helmet and the position, size and clarity of the number varies. Even on TV the identity of a driver from the headrest camera is not always simple until the TV people put their name up. Back to black on white I say!

Also re Brands comments, the position indicator board at Silverstone shows the top ten I think but from most grandstand seats you need binoculars to read it

[Number4]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

That's pretty much how I remember the British GP in the mid '70s to the mid 80s. They usually had a celebrity race as well. I've still got the programmes for most of those races, particularly Brands Hatch as that was my 'local' circuit.

Brands Hatch was also very good for viewing, as the Indy track was in a natural amphitheater. They also had a big display board, on the slope behind Cooper Straight, which showed the first 6 car positions.

The best race in the world would be the British Grand Prix Brands Hatch Indy 500.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Number4

The best race in the world would be the British Grand Prix Brands Hatch Indy 500.

A 500 mile GP round the Indy circuit? That would be insane. Where would they put the DRS zones?

I went to the CART race at Brands in 2003 and seeing those monsters charge around the Indy circuit was fairly mind boggling.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Number4

I expect this picture will induce much foaming of the mouth, and gnashing of teethes among some of you guys.
To millions of others it is perfectly normal.

That looks like turn 7 at Sonoma.

[Number4]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

A 500 mile GP round the Indy circuit? That would be insane. Where would they put the DRS zones?

I went to the CART race at Brands in 2003 and seeing those monsters charge around the Indy circuit was fairly mind boggling.

500 laps, runwhatyabrung.

I watched a Can-Am race at Brands Hatch from Paddock Hill. My beer got so excited it spilt itself. They must have been registering 4.0 on the Richter scale.

[old man]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

A 500 mile GP round the Indy circuit? That would be insane. Where would they put the DRS zones?

I went to the CART race at Brands in 2003 and seeing those monsters charge around the Indy circuit was fairly mind boggling.

Sorry, a bit off topic but didn't they run at Rockingham as well? How did that go and why did it not take off?

[Number4]

Originally Posted by old man

Sorry, a bit off topic but didn't they run at Rockingham as well? How did that go and why did it not take off?

CART went bust after the long civil war with the IRL, before unification into Indycar in 2007. CART was a worldwide series, Indycar gets as far as Toronto.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by old man

Sorry, a bit off topic but didn't they run at Rockingham as well? How did that go and why did it not take off?

The Rockingham 500, that's Kms not Miles, was held in 2001 and 2002. I went to both and to answer your question, they weren't the best attended races I've ever been to but I put that down to equally a lack of publicity, as CART was only televised on Eurosport in those days and the location. It wasn't the easiest venue to get to and it was an earlyish start due to the distance from London and unfamiliarity with the route. In 2002, it was a lot easier, having done it the year before. Otherwise the crowd was very knowledgeable and both races were really good.

In 2003 FedEx was no longer the series sponsor and CART started to morph into Champ Car and the powers that be decided to go to Brands that year.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Number4

CART went bust after the long civil war with the IRL, before unification into Indycar in 2007. CART was a worldwide series, Indycar gets as far as Toronto.

There's a bit more to it than that but come over to the IndyCar section of 10-Tenths and you can discuss CART vs. The IRL to your heart's content.

Getting back to one of the topics, track limit. If one of the problems is track sharing with Moto GP, then why not add the axle breaking curbing, that was used in Austria when it's an F1 GP and remove it for a Moto GP?

[wnut]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

A 500 mile GP round the Indy circuit? That would be insane. Where would they put the DRS zones?

I went to the CART race at Brands in 2003 and seeing those monsters charge around the Indy circuit was fairly mind boggling.

You don't think that DRS would be unnecessary on an oval where you get several racing grooves BJ?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by wnut

You don't think that DRS would be unnecessary on an oval where you get several racing grooves BJ?

The Indy track at Brands isn't an oval, it sort of resembles an oval, hence its name.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

The Indy track at Brands isn't an oval, it sort of resembles an oval, hence its name.

Ta, thanks BJ, teach me to comment on things I am not familiar with.

[BSchneiderFan]

It's sort of kidney-shaped, really. So-called because USAC ran there in the late 1970s, isn't it?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

It's sort of kidney-shaped, really. So-called because USAC ran there in the late 1970s, isn't it?

That's right. USAC ran two rounds of their 1978 season, in October at Silverstone and Brands Hatch. I went to the Brands Hatch; some of the cars were still running Offenhauser engines.