[WEC] Kolles Prototype

[veeten]

The problem was at the output, the "last straw" was that with a maximum of 520 kW (697 bhp), in the heat of the day in Bahrain they were down 60kW(80bhp), and when the temps dropped as evening to night came, the loss was at 50kW(67bhp). This is more than a problem with cooling, it's a power loss that shows you are, definately, not in the same room as the others, hybrid or not.

[broadrun96]

No, that shows they ain't cooling that thing at all and breaking parts. They're up to ignition fail, gaskets, lines, fittings all this year breaking. They're not breaking the engine physically any longer, just burning up all the bits. When you replace the entire ignition system in a race and gain near zero until it's cooler, that's your temps and air flow, not just engine internal temps. Add in turbo and intercooler needs? We might actually see the car catch fire again

[S griffin]

Really they just need to make sure they have enough cooling before anything else. That seems to be the most obvious problem. Basically they need to add reliability before they look into performance. They seem to be up the creek without a paddle

[TF110]

Any guess on who they go with for a new engine?

[hondafan37]

This car has no place in the WEC if the third Ferrari appears.
I wonder why not an AM Hypercar in ELMS? Same driver rules as LMP2
many AM drivers would finance these programs.
Even Glikenhaus could be here, he had problems with the Asian races, not the European ones. Obviously ensure a place at Le Mans for these Hypercars.
Even the second Isotta Fraschini and the second Proton 963 could be here and why not some 499P later.
Maybe they could make a balanced BOP with LMP2 so that there is a lot of competition...
Obviously you should eliminate LMP3 and allow the NSX, R8 and Mercedes GT3.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

This car has no place in the WEC …

I believe posting this photo both agrees and disagrees with your point.

https://www.racingsportscars.com/pho...-06-21-061.jpg

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by Adam43

I believe posting this photo both agrees and disagrees with your point.

https://www.racingsportscars.com/pho...-06-21-061.jpg

In those years Le Mans did not have the boom it has now and those cars could race. but now the grid is oversized.
Also, I honestly hate LMP2 and LMP3 because they are almost spec categories, nothing new can come from that!!!
At the time of your photo there were zero specifications and it was free!!!

[Adam43]

Proves your point: it wasn’t in a boom, so they could enter.
Disapproves your point: variety, but poor.

Proves your point: variety meant people could get away with anything.
Disproved your point: they had to accept anything to fill the grid.

I’m neither disagreeing nor agreeing, but woo! We have a healthy series.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

This car has no place in the WEC if the third Ferrari appears.
I wonder why not an AM Hypercar in ELMS? Same driver rules as LMP2
many AM drivers would finance these programs.
Even Glikenhaus could be here, he had problems with the Asian races, not the European ones. Obviously ensure a place at Le Mans for these Hypercars.
Even the second Isotta Fraschini and the second Proton 963 could be here and why not some 499P later.
Maybe they could make a balanced BOP with LMP2 so that there is a lot of competition...
Obviously you should eliminate LMP3 and allow the NSX, R8 and Mercedes GT3.

Dear God NO NO NO NO on the top class in ELMS. Teams already cry about costs and now you want to take the teams that win overall and tell them to sit in the corner with your toys, these guys can't compete so we're gonna stick them here to make you right with them for drivers. Oh and then you won't be winning at all any more, oh and it you want to win your budget will be doubled at least.

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Dear God NO NO NO NO on the top class in ELMS. Teams already cry about costs and now you want to take the teams that win overall and tell them to sit in the corner with your toys, these guys can't compete so we're gonna stick them here to make you right with them for drivers. Oh and then you won't be winning at all any more, oh and it you want to win your budget will be doubled at least.

ELMS should absorb everything that the WEC cannot.... What is LMP3 for?

[Adam43]

The organizers want it to be a sustainable consistent series. Their priory is those already in it, who have been supporting it.

I get it, it’s a nice idea, but don’t ruin a series that is also running at capacity or near capacity.

Allowing this risks making it less attractive for those in it.

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Proves your point: it wasn’t in a boom, so they could enter.
Disapproves your point: variety, but poor.

Proves your point: variety meant people could get away with anything.
Disproved your point: they had to accept anything to fill the grid.

I’m neither disagreeing nor agreeing, but woo! We have a healthy series.

Obviously we have a healthy series!!!!
But I feel that the ELMS should absorb the Hypercars that cannot be in the WEC
1 hypercar is always better than 10 LMP3!!!

[tomcug]

Originally Posted by TF110

Any guess on who they go with for a new engine?

Options are limited I suppose:

• AER P60's newest version (they were cooking something for LMDh use)
• Cosworth/Nissan VRX30A (if Nissan is willing to lease them more engines after negative comments about their motor)
• Pipo that powered Glick's car (if James approves customer sales?)

I don't see any other, unless they're willing to pay someone to develop new engine for them which is something I can't see happening. And still, installing a turbo engine in that junk-cooled chassis might make things worse.

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

Obviously we have a healthy series!!!!
But I feel that the ELMS should absorb the Hypercars that cannot be in the WEC
1 hypercar is always better than 10 LMP3!!!

Ruining the class structure of a regional series to accommodate a small number of cars left over from a global series is a very good way of making sure a healthy series is no longer healthy.

You can run a race with one car, but very few people will turn up to watch.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

1 hypercar is always better than 10 LMP3!!!

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, especially when the one Hypercar is the Kolles.....

[tomcug]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

when the one Hypercar is the Kolles.....

LMAO Also LMP3 isn't totally formula-Ligier like LMP2 is formula-Oreca and those cars have good sounding engines

[RL17]

Feeder series needs to reward success and be about moving upwards for teams and drivers if they are good enough. ELMS already squeezed due LMP2 relegation.

Plus why would AM spend so much money on car that struggled against LMP2’s or to be 1st in a class of 1.

[veeten]

This just tells us why we have better engineered cars out there, right now. With more coming next season.
ByKolles(Vanwall) needs to sit this coming season out and get these issues sorted. Have the new engine with a properly built cooling system, better working brakes, and electronics that don't resemble 60's-70's Lucas systems. Then, do some proper testing, at an actual race course.

It would give people a better idea of what you are doing rather than faffing about for attention. Just saying...

[Graham Goodwin]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

Obviously we have a healthy series!!!!
But I feel that the ELMS should absorb the Hypercars that cannot be in the WEC
1 hypercar is always better than 10 LMP3!!!

Which Hypercars would those be?

Also - LMP3 provides the ladder - to LMP2 and onwards - that's a HUGE part of the value of Le Mans Cup, Asian LMS and ELMS

[Akrapovic]

People will talk about how this car doesn't deserve to be in the WEC whilst talking about the glory days of things like 1999 where a good half the LMP field was over 20 laps down.

This car deserves to be in WEC because arguably it's the most Le Mans Hypercar that exists. It's nailed together in a shed, with some stickers to change the name of a chassis thats as old as my kids. That's the story of about 50% of the Le Mans entries in the history of the race.

We can't sit and talk about how great the days of Pescarolo or WR or Lister or Panoz were, and then say this car shouldn't be here because it won't win. Because almost no cars that enter Le Mans win. Imagine telling Don Panoz he shouldn't enter Le Mans because theres no chance his weird LMP-1 with the engine in the wrong place was ever going to beat BMW, Toyota, Audi etc.

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by Graham Goodwin

Which Hypercars would those be?

Also - LMP3 provides the ladder - to LMP2 and onwards - that's a HUGE part of the value of Le Mans Cup, Asian LMS and ELMS

Vanwall, Glickenhaus, the second Isotta Fraschini, in the future the second Proton 963.... perhaps some 499P, If you secure them a place at Le Mans a Hypercar AM class should be successful.
I insist the ELMS should absorb the Hypercars that cannot be in the WEC
1 hypercar is always better than 10 LMP3!!!

[Graham Goodwin]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

Vanwall, Glickenhaus, the second Isotta Fraschini, in the future the second Proton 963.... perhaps some 499P, If you secure them a place at Le Mans a Hypercar AM class should be successful.
I insist the ELMS should absorb the Hypercars that cannot be in the WEC
1 hypercar is always better than 10 LMP3!!!

I am not aware of any team that supports adding Hypercar to ELMS at present - simply wanting a place for a couple of cars that might fall out of the WEC is absolutely not a reason to deconstruct the very system that has provided the building blocks for the current Hypercar and LMGT3 roster - Hypercar might, eventually, filter down to ELMS but it is nowhere close to being realistic just yet

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

1 hypercar is always better than 10 LMP3!!!

No matter how many times you say it - it just doesn't work.....on any level...

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

People will talk about how this car doesn't deserve to be in the WEC whilst talking about the glory days of things like 1999 where a good half the LMP field was over 20 laps down.
...
We can't sit and talk about how great the days of Pescarolo or WR or Lister or Panoz were, and then say this car shouldn't be here because it won't win. Because almost no cars that enter Le Mans win. Imagine telling Don Panoz he shouldn't enter Le Mans because theres no chance his weird LMP-1 with the engine in the wrong place was ever going to beat BMW, Toyota, Audi etc.

I don't think most new fans do talk about those days reverently, if at all; it's just the older fans, who rightly also acknowledge the pitfalls of that era's reliability and accepted it as part of the package; this simply isn't the case now (insert blame of F1/screen addiction/HFCS here). Nostalgia has a wicked way with memory, ensuring we remember the battles on and off-track while helping us to forget the large periods of tedium when all but two cars were laps down in the first hour.

Racing in general has shifted towards having more cars on track for more of the time, hence the standardisation of components and reliability mandates dressed up as cost/environment-saving measures. It's the most important aspect of a racecar, and if a team cannot demonstrate this basic requirement, it shouldn't be surprising that a series organiser doesn't want to dedicate its resources to an entry that won't be on track for half of the race. Racing in almost all cases is entertainment first - a car that cannot run requires more investment and trust on the fans' part to appreciate why it is still interesting. That's clearly not something many series organisers are willing to rely on.

While I would rather see Kolles at Le Mans than not, I'd rather see a more reliable, competitive hypercar than Kolles if it was a straight choice between the two entries. Telling Don Panoz he shouldn't enter Le Mans because the third TS020/Audi R8 will get the entry ahead of him would suck for him/his fans, but I doubt many would disagree with the choice.

Originally Posted by hondafan37

I insist the ELMS should absorb the Hypercars that cannot be in the WEC
1 hypercar is always better than 10 LMP3!!!

Cripple the ELMS for one car, cool. What would you say to the LMP2/3 teams that simply do not engage in ACO racing as a result?

Because, just in case it wasn't obvious, when the inevitable factory interest in hypercar wanes (as it did with LMP1-H, Group C, etc.), it will be these teams that the ACO will call on. Let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by J Jay

While I would rather see Kolles at Le Mans than not, I'd rather see a more reliable, competitive hypercar than Kolles if it was a straight choice between the two entries. Telling Don Panoz he shouldn't enter Le Mans because the third TS020/Audi R8 will get the entry ahead of him would suck for him/his fans, but I doubt many would disagree with the choice.

I'm not sure I agree with that. We had it a lot in GTE. We chucked out long term supporters like JMW because Ford wanted 4 cars, and therefore everyone else wanted 4 cars. I don't consider this an upgrade.

I don't think manufacturers should be allowed to saturate a class for the short term whilst hurting private long term supporters.