What is Aston Martin up to?

[Lola T70]

Originally Posted by old man

It would be nice to see Jonny Cocker in that car but are they looking for money as well as speed?

Kind of looks like it

[knighty]

Originally Posted by Bentley03

Not quite everything apart from the gearbox, it seems..........Cosworth supply the electronics. There was a link afterall.

hmmm....Prodrive employ alot of ex-cosworth design and development staff, Chris Willoughby being a particularly senior ex cosworth F1 figure........I am betting he has his name written all over that engine.......I must say the engine layout (straight 6) does not surprise me, my network of spies tells me this is the layout of Astons new in-house road car engine that will replace the V12 due to tighter emissions regs. So this will allow a road-train of marketing based BS that the road car engine was developed on the race track. anyway, the car does look "different" best of luck to them........I think its a wise decision in pulling out of sebring, that race is too brutal for such a new car.

[chernaudi]

I have to agree with Mike's assessment of the car on Mulsanne's Corner--very, very conservative.

I don't understand the inline 6 configuration, as in production cars V8s of equal of more capacity are usually lighter as well as a bit shorter. Inline engines of 6 cylinders and more tend to less rigid in longitiudinal torsion than a V engine (hence probably why the engine is semi-stress mounted like the old V12). You can see that only BMW and Ford Austrailia have stuck with the inline 6, and that's more out of tradition more than anything else. At least with as long as the wheelbase is, the engine's length doesn't seem to pose much of an issue.

Also of interest is that the engine seems to be light enough that one man can carry it if need be--but with any smallish LMP1 engine, including the diesel units--that's probably not a very had accomplishment with the right guy doing the pulling.

But aerowise, the car, aside from the frontal aspect, is very conservative--I don't even remember LMP900s being that slab-sided. And it does make the Audi and Pug look attractive from that angle. Granted, Audi have gone with a more conservative approach with the R18 to reduce drag and complexity, and the new 908's areo package is a warmed over version of the old 908. And both look better than the AMR machine.

But then again, the old Lola based cars had pretty conservative aero, and did look quite a bit better than this. If only the sides matched the front and rear, it's look better, and I hope it performs better on the track than how it looks.

And I don't think that totally pulling out of Sebring is entirely a smart move. Audi won't race the R18 there, but have had nearly a week's worth of testing with two of them and that featured an endurance test, and Audi will test again following Sebring. Sebring is probably the hardest track on cars nowadays, and if a car can survive 24-30 hours of endurance testing at Sebring, it'll survive most likely at Le Mans or elsewhere.

[veeten]

What gets me is the use of the Straight Six, which gives it a sort of 'Back to the Future' feel.

The greatest thing that the British gave to motorsport was the straight six engine, be it Jaguar, Aston Martin, or others. It was to the UK as the V12 was to Italy, and the V8 was to the US; the personification of national motoring.

[chernaudi]

My biggest complaint, as mentioned, is that the sides of the car just don't fit design wise with what the front and rear have to offer.

Also interesting in Mike's article is that the ARM-One was designed, it appears, mostly with CFD, unlike Audi and Peugeot, who designed the R18 and the 908 with CFD and scale & full size wind tunnel testing, as it lacks a lot of the little bits that the R18 and the 908 have. The Audi R8 looks more modern in a lot of ways to me compared to the AMR-One, and the R8's over a decade old and hasn't race in anger since 2006.

As I said, I hope that it performs better than it looks, because Audi got sidetracked with the orginal R15 because of CFD, and that lead to Audi redesigning the R15 for 2010 to be more conventional areowise.

Ironically, the cockpit has a lot of similarities with the '10 R15, aside from having a properitary AMR steering wheel and being RHD.

[veeten]

but, then again, Acura & HPD did their LM challengers in CFD, and look how they did...

[GTfour]

Originally Posted by veeten

What gets me is the use of the Straight Six, which gives it a sort of 'Back to the Future' feel.

The greatest thing that the British gave to motorsport was the straight six engine, be it Jaguar, Aston Martin, or others. It was to the UK as the V12 was to Italy, and the V8 was to the US; the personification of national motoring.

Hang on there mate,the brits may have used the straight six to great effect, but it was us dutch who 'gave' the world this engine concept.
First raced in a Spyker at Brooklands in 1922.

[chernaudi]

Originally Posted by veeten

but, then again, Acura & HPD did their LM challengers in CFD, and look how they did...

Sorry, but the ARX-02 got slaughtered by the Audi R15 and Peugeot 908 at Sebring and PLM, and was never destined, at least in it's orignal form, to race at Le Mans.

In LMP2, the ARX-01 has been the car to have if you couldn't get your hands on a Porsche RS Spyder, and the playing field has been more level--there have been no diesel LMP2s for one, and, especially now, there are no big factory teams and such--Strakka beat Highcroft at LM last year in spite of a pro-am driver on their team, for example. However, Wirth was limited by the Oreca/Courage supplied tub with what he could do, and I can bet that those cars did ultimately see windtunnel time at some stage.

I just don't trust CFD as it is right now. Audi got bit on the early R15 by relyling too much on CFD stuff that they used to design their DTM cars.

You can get away with CFD on high downforce cars, like F1 cars and DTM cars, but I'm not so sure that you can with LMP1 cars at this stage, as Audi proved in 2009.

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

You can get away with CFD on high downforce cars, like F1 cars and DTM cars, but I'm not so sure that you can with LMP1 cars at this stage, as Audi proved in 2009.

Can you? Not a single top-tier F1 outfit has gone CFD only. All still maintain very active scale model programs. The only team to fully embrace CFD has been Virgin, and we see where they are, right? Now as the FIA clamps down on cost, yes, this is the wave of the future. But until then...hell, Williams and Ferrari doubled up on the Toyota tunnel to get around the current cost constraints. Scale tunnel development is still extremely important in F1. That it seems to be winding down in sportscars is only because of the cost perception. As LMP budgets shrink that is going to continue to be the case.

[chernaudi]

Virgin under Wirth has gone almost completly CFD. And I can see that coming in F1, too, as there have been limits on windtunnel and on-track testing in recent years.

Just like in NASCAR, from 2009 until the end of last season, there were strict limits placed on on-track testing, so teams upped post-rig and computer simiulation testing. However, when let loose the reigns on on-track and windtunnel testing, teams will take advantage if they're willing to make the investment.

Now that we've gone off track, with me talking about cars that have underpinnings not unlike that could be found on an old Ford Cortina, let's get back to CFD on sportscars.

What worries me about CFD is that's it's a computer simulation, and I don't think that windtunnel or track time can be replaced right now. However, with the F1 test restrictions and such, they'll have to rely on CFD more and more, and I'm sure that as it gets more effective, teams will use it more and more. But can CFD truly replace real world testing? Not now, I believe.

And could it be also a time saving-issue for AMR as well? Audi doing something as mundane as making the front diffusers for the R18 primarily out of machined aluminum castings has been described as a cost/time saving technique. And of course, money and time saved can be used elsewhere.

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by AGD

Can you imagine the 917 or 936 with a "big honkin' fin?" Yikes!

917 had 2 smaller fins.
Kremer Porsche CK5 had a huge one.

The reason modern fins look bad is that they're not integrated into the design like they were on old sportscars or modern F1 cars. They look like someone dropped a door onto the car and it went in.

PS: here's an interesting question. According to AMR official specs the total width is 1990mm. Why not 2000?

And another one. Isn't that Vanina Ickx?

[KA]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

And I don't think that totally pulling out of Sebring is entirely a smart move. Audi won't race the R18 there, but have had nearly a week's worth of testing with two of them and that featured an endurance test, and Audi will test again following Sebring. Sebring is probably the hardest track on cars nowadays, and if a car can survive 24-30 hours of endurance testing at Sebring, it'll survive most likely at Le Mans or elsewhere.

Pulling out of the race at Sebring is probably a smart move, given how far behind the ball AMR are in terms of test mileage- if they took the new car over to Sebring for the race, they were never going to get that 24-30 hours endurance testing because of all of the time they'd lose sitting on axlestands in the paddock while support races etc ran their practice and qualifying sessions. Given that apparently the engine hadn't even run in the car yet when those photos were taken last week, if I read the DSC report correctly, right now they'd probably be better served by spending some time flogging round Silverstone, Paul Ricard or wherever- somewhere where they can run whatever test schedule they like without the distraction of having to fit around other people's practice sessions, races etc

Shipping a car over to join Audi for a post-race test after Sebring might be a very good idea though....

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

The reason modern fins look bad is that they're not integrated into the design like they were on old sportscars or modern F1 cars. They look like someone dropped a door onto the car and it went in.

Yep- looking at the new Aston, and looking at the Pug and the R18 in profile, one thing stands out straight away- it's much easier to integrate the Big Honkin' Fin into a coupe, where you can at least link it to the roofline to a degree, than it is on an open car...

[KA]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

.

And another one. Isn't that Vanina Ickx?

Yes, DSC's report mentions that Vanina, Sam Hancock and Juan Barazi (apparently there to collect his new Aston One-77 road car, as you do...) were amongst the drivers present.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

I don't understand the inline 6 configuration, as in production cars V8s of equal of more capacity are usually lighter as well as a bit shorter. Inline engines of 6 cylinders and more tend to less rigid in longitiudinal torsion than a V engine (hence probably why the engine is semi-stress mounted like the old V12).

I don't understand your aversion for a straight 6.

If engine length is not an issue, a straight 6 has a number of advantages. It is perfectly balanced and hence runs very smooth (see wikipedia or this basic article). A V6 suffers from more friction losses because it needs 4 camshafts instead of 2, and 2 cilinder banks lead to more heat losses.

Originally Posted by chernaudi

You can see that only BMW and Ford Austrailia have stuck with the inline 6, and that's more out of tradition more than anything else.

The BMW N54 (straight 6, direct injection, twin turbo) and N55 (single twin scroll turbo) are fantastic engines. That has nothing to do with tradition.

BTW do not forgot the fabulous TVR Speed Six engine.

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

917
PS: here's an interesting question. According to AMR official specs the total width is 1990mm. Why not 2000?

10mm less frontal area...

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

I don't understand your aversion for a straight 6.

It's probably based only on assumptions that famously unreliable engines were unreliable just because of the cylinder arrangement. Just remember the long-ish posts debating the disadvantages of V6 engines as well solely because the Peugeot V6 turbo engines in the WM chassis in the 1980s tended to blow up a lot.

[Tim the Grey]

Nothing to do with them being overboosted, and rads blocked off, then?

[Wims]

It does kinda look 5 years outdated straight out of the box

[Rennen]

Looks gorgous to me...just hope it can take the fight to the Diesels?

[Austinspace75]

Weird how they've gone from one of the prettiest cars ever raced to one of the ugliest. At least the Audi looks evil and purposeful. This car is just plain old nasty to me.

Hope it makes up for it in other ways.

[Rennen]

Originally Posted by Austinspace75

Weird how they've gone from one of the prettiest cars ever raced to one of the ugliest. At least the Audi looks evil and purposeful. This car is just plain old nasty to me.

Hope it makes up for it in other ways.

Their Coupe was just a restyled Lola!

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by Rennen

Looks gorgous to me...just hope it can take the fight to the Diesels?

No, it won't be able to do that, for sure not this year. They´re way too late in terms of development and according to Dave Richards have only half the financial resources of Audi and Peugeot.

Even with 100% equal rules, they wouldn't be able to compete with the big boys in terms of raw speed. They´ll be competing for best of the rest again, against the Rebellion Toyotas.

[Victor_RO]

Possible issue I was just thinking about...

... what about the spec fuel? Have the ACO changed the fuel specification since the turbocharged disasters of 2009? Might be an issue to ponder for this car's engine if not.

[courageous]

I think not going to Sebring, they may have missed a trick-

Audi will be running a grandfathered car & by the ACOs own statements these will be seriously pegged back.

Aston Martin outperform Audi in qualifying & first couple of hours - media win for a brand new, untested, underbudget car

Grandfathered car still quicker than a brand new works car - better performance balancing for Aston Martin

[nobster]

I thought i was watching an updated Lister LMP car, it looks like a brick on wheels to me.