LMP2 Manufacturers and Engine Suppliers

[joeb]

Roger drove a Porsche!

https://racer.com/2021/05/12/penske-...che-rs-spyder/

[Adam43]

Brilliant. I see he’s going to take it up the hill too. I wish I could see that.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Brilliant. I see he’s going to take it up the hill too. I wish I could see that.

I'm a bit surprised he fit in there. Looks like a tight cockpit and he isn't the smallest guy. Anyways, hope i can drive something fast when i'm in my 80's!

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by joeb

I'm a bit surprised he fit in there. Looks like a tight cockpit and he isn't the smallest guy. Anyways, hope i can drive something fast when i'm in my 80's!

You wish you could drive something fast now, and no Zoom-Zooms don't count

[joeb]

Long interview with the Inter-Europol boss on DSC has some interesting comments.

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2021/0...ish-squad.html

Not very much praise for the Ligier manufacturing process.

When you switched to the ORECA-07 bodywork, this choice was praised and, indeed, there was considerable optimism. This was also emphasised by Kuba, your son. So what were the biggest differences you noticed after dropping the Ligier?

The ORECA-07 is a race car that is built to the limit. The weight of this car is around 80 kilograms. The Ligier car was built with practically no ballast, so its weight was almost equal to the legal weight. The places where the car can be loaded with ballast are imposed by the manufacturer. ORECA is better at producing parts, they take care of the details. The bonnet, the front nose, the rear parts – it’s all about making sure that specific parts fit together. On the Ligier, everything had to be refined.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by joeb

Long interview with the Inter-Europol boss on DSC has some interesting comments.

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2021/0...ish-squad.html

Not very much praise for the Ligier manufacturing process.

Sounds like Ligier hired the QA guys from the end of Lola given what a certain team said about the B09/62 coupe in the dying days of the ALMS. Course they went from a RS Spyder to the Lola so guessing slightly different fit and finish there

[Mike E]

ARC Bratislava request switch from Ligier to ORECA chassis for LM. FIA/ACO really need to get a handle on managing the chassis cartel next time around. It's a farce.

Maybe an annual BoP round or something.

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2021/0...a-chassis.html

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by Mike E

ARC Bratislava request switch from Ligier to ORECA chassis for LM. FIA/ACO really need to get a handle on managing the chassis cartel next time around. It's a farce.

Maybe an annual BoP round or something.

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2021/0...a-chassis.html

cetilar racing aside, I can't remember any team who sticked long with dallara or ligier... soon or later everyone knocked to oreca's door.
A bop won't help to compensate chassis deficit.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by canaglia

cetilar racing aside, I can't remember any team who sticked long with dallara or ligier... soon or later everyone knocked to oreca's door.
A bop won't help to compensate chassis deficit.

Won't help now, no, but he was referring to the next set of P2 regulations

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by joeb

Won't help now, no, but he was referring to the next set of P2 regulations

it's basically the same
if oreca will do an unbeatable 09 and dallara and ligier will keep on releasing crap chassis, it isn't bop that will save the day.
Dallara lmp2 has always been a little mistery actually... terrible in lmp2 configuration, overkilling as dpi platform.

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by canaglia

Dallara lmp2 has always been a little mistery actually... terrible in lmp2 configuration, overkilling as dpi platform.

That's development for you. That why a spec prototype is both an oxymoron and a terrible idea.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

That's development for you. That why a spec prototype is both an oxymoron and a terrible idea.

don't know how realistically cadillac dpi had a real development during the years, maybe only some necessary changes required to adapt the car to the new 5.5L in late 2017.
I remember also that WTR was the first team to receive a cadillac dpi chassis in 2016 october and AXR received them even later... despite just few months of testing before daytona debut, cadillac dpi dominated from the very beginning.
It's really strange how the lmp2 version is a crap car dropped by every team that purchased it while cadillac dpi is still the best dpi on grid and unable to show its full potential because still pushed back by bop (smaller fuel tank, heavier car, many aero setting limits). Oreca 07 is great in lmp2 form and great in dpi form as arx-05, ligier lmp2 is bad in lmp2 and also nissan dpi wasn't exactly the real deal

[joeb]

Originally Posted by canaglia

don't know how realistically cadillac dpi had a real development during the years, maybe only some necessary changes required to adapt the car to the new 5.5L in late 2017.
I remember also that WTR was the first team to receive a cadillac dpi chassis in 2016 october and AXR received them even later... despite just few months of testing before daytona debut, cadillac dpi dominated from the very beginning.
It's really strange how the lmp2 version is a crap car dropped by every team that purchased it while cadillac dpi is still the best dpi on grid and unable to show its full potential because still pushed back by bop (smaller fuel tank, heavier car, many aero setting limits). Oreca 07 is great in lmp2 form and great in dpi form as arx-05, ligier lmp2 is bad in lmp2 and also nissan dpi wasn't exactly the real deal

It would be fun to see how fast the Cadillac could actually go if they took off all the ballast they could and ran at their own optimal aero settings within their given parts, instead of being mandated to what they have to use. Also let them unrestrict their motor and see what happens!

Depending on the track it could be worth a few seconds, which is actually pretty huge in the scheme of things in prototype racing right now.

[Pandamasque]

Firstly, if memory serves me right, the Cadillac didn't come before Dallara P2, so that's development time right there. They won't have this luxury in 2023. On the other hand, that's the reason all the OEMs seems to be continuing with their current chassis partners. The devil you know and all that. There's a chance 2023 chassis rules won't be that different to DPi.

Secondly, a GM Small Block V8 is a force of nature which can overpower a lot of drawbacks in other areas!

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

Firstly, if memory serves me right, the Cadillac didn't come before Dallara P2, so that's development time right there. They won't have this luxury in 2023. On the other hand, that's the reason all the OEMs seems to be continuing with their current chassis partners. The devil you know and all that. There's a chance 2023 chassis rules won't be that different to DPi.

Secondly, a GM Small Block V8 is a force of nature which can overpower a lot of drawbacks in other areas!

What does your first sentence mean?
At that time dallara was already developing the lmp2 car, cadillac dpi has dallara lmp2 tub and share most of the aero bodywork. It has a different powertrain of course and likely different suspensions geometries.
But despite the same base platform, lmp2 car has never been competitive and was extremely unstable and unpredictable according to interviews I've read here and there, while cadillac dpi is basically perfect. A good engine doesn't fix chassis issues...

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by canaglia

What does your first sentence mean?

I meant to say, the development of a P2 car preceded the development of the DPi package. So GM likely had a bit of extra time working with Dallara on the DPi car. Whereas now it's other way round. And wasn't just about the aero. I've heard, DPis have considerable suspension upgrades.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

I meant to say, the development of a P2 car preceded the development of the DPi package. So GM likely had a bit of extra time working with Dallara on the DPi car. Whereas now it's other way round. And wasn't just about the aero. I've heard, DPis have considerable suspension upgrades.

About cadillac dpi suspensions there is a rumor floating from years with WTR using a dallara made suspensions set-up and AXR cars using a custom made suspensions set-up lately adopted by every other cadillac team (but WTR).

[joeb]

Originally Posted by canaglia

About cadillac dpi suspensions there is a rumor floating from years with WTR using a dallara made suspensions set-up and AXR cars using a custom made suspensions set-up lately adopted by every other cadillac team (but WTR).

Well WTR uses the Oreca Acura now so that makes sense that they don't use the caddy suspension.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by joeb

Well WTR uses the Oreca Acura now so that makes sense that they don't use the caddy suspension.

I was meaning about WTR when they were using cadillac dpi from 2017 to 2020, their car was the only one to use a dallara suspensions set-up while all other cadillac teams were using the AXR set-up. But this is a rumor, who knows how things actually were.

[Mike E]

Current LMP2 generation to continue until the end of 2023.

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2021/0...decisions.html

[broadrun96]

So it appears the new cars will have to be built and running for 2023 though as they are the base for the LMDh regs. I guess they'll have a year to play and tweak before they are locked in or will they make the cars for LMDh and the introduction will just help the LMP2 teams not have to buy for another year.

I'm hoping they allow the LMDh testing to make better LMP2 base chassis and the base isn't set until the 2024 season homologation.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

So it appears the new cars will have to be built and running for 2023 though as they are the base for the LMDh regs. I guess they'll have a year to play and tweak before they are locked in or will they make the cars for LMDh and the introduction will just help the LMP2 teams not have to buy for another year.

I'm hoping they allow the LMDh testing to make better LMP2 base chassis and the base isn't set until the 2024 season homologation.

And I still have no idea what the 2024 lmp2 regs will look like! Since Porsche plans to be out testing their car soon, i'm guessing multimatic has just mildly updated the current Mazda chassis for the LMDh project. Tub is probably nearly identical with some different electronics, suspension, and packaging?

[WyldStallion]

Originally Posted by joeb

And I still have no idea what the 2024 lmp2 regs will look like! Since Porsche plans to be out testing their car soon, i'm guessing multimatic has just mildly updated the current Mazda chassis for the LMDh project. Tub is probably nearly identical with some different electronics, suspension, and packaging?

That would stink. LMP2 today is boring. The cars don't excite whatsoever. Need something that looks hypercarish I think. Think the new KTM Cross Bow...something that looks like this with the Gibson engine can be the new P2.

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by WyldStallion

That would stink. LMP2 today is boring. The cars don't excite whatsoever. Need something that looks hypercarish I think. Think the new KTM Cross Bow...something that looks like this with the Gibson engine can be the new P2.

Simply increasing minimum cockpit width (to be at least as much as GR010 or wider still) will make a big difference to the looks and effectively abolish THE EGG in the middle. Oreca is the worst offender here. This is a good image for comparison. Note how Dallara's cockpit looks more "horizontal" (R18-like instead of 908-like) and Multimatic's even more so (basically still Lola). Technically, they're probably the same width, but regs requiring wider roofs leave a lot less scope for the Oreca solution.



It's a pet peeve of mine, but I'm sure a lot of people would like sportscars to resemble 2-seaters again, as opposed to an egg with a beak.

Secondly, just like in LMH, free up the rear end regulations so that all 4 cars aren't required to look completely the same.

Thirdly, set a minimum radius for bodywork curves in between the wheel centre lines (in front/rear view), excluding the roof/engine cover. So no more sharply protruding wheel arches. F1 successfully eradicated "1000-fins on top of fins" designs in 2009 by introducing radius-based bodywork regulations. Alas, they left a few loopholes around the mirrors and in the bargeboard area which in its complexity has since overtaken the Great Barrier Reef... But where the rule applies it absolutely worked.
I hope at least some of the LMDh manufactures will take care of this voluntarily, if they intend to promote their racing exploits among a wider public. Same with blunt vertical leading edge of fenders. I can't think of a rule to prevent that, but then, there are smarter people than me involved.

Fourthly, Other than LMPs no racing class on Earth had such a crude realisation of the fin concept. So set maximum big honking fin height at least 100mm if not 200mm below where the top of engine intake currently is. It'll make a huge visual difference. Allow any fin shape and rear wing integration, but stipulate a reasonable minimum total area of the fin to ensure it's effective. This will make sure fins won't look like an office door stuck on top of a race car.

Other than the minimum cockpit width, these improvements don't even require changing the tub in any way. They are purely cosmetic changes that would make a big difference.

[canaglia]

multimatic chassis used by mazda is an updated version of the riley that had a cockpit with lmp3-like size and proportion. Don't know if they managed to change it or it's just my eyes that are used to mazda dpi shape after 4 years.
Anyway new lmp2 and lmdh will need to be designed in 4:1, so I won't be surprised if lmp2 manufacturer will use a different aero approach on front instead of the usual big nose + diveplanes layout.