LMP2 Manufacturers and Engine Suppliers

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by canaglia

ligier has always been extra draggy and despite the 2018 joker updates it still cant reach oreca top speed, some years ago, 2019 maybe, it was posted here an article about united drivers feedbacks after a comparative tests they did with ligier and oreca before they switched to oreca, and they said that oreca is basically better in everything... easier tyres managment, easier to set-up, better support from oreca etc...


in my opinion the 2018 updated multimatic-mazda was already an oreca comparable car about overall quality, it was heavy limited by the powertrain. Anyway multimatic usually prefers focusing on working with manufacturers programs instead of selling cars to customers, so I won't be surprised to see tons of next gen oreca lmp2 everywhere and more porsche lmdh around than multimatic lmp2.

Huh?? The same powertrain that's in the other cars?

[Coach Ep]

Maybe he's referring to the Mazda DPi engine (4 cylinder turbo)?

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

Maybe he's referring to the Mazda DPi engine (4 cylinder turbo)?

correct, the multimatic mazda shown its potential only from 2019 when AER finally delivered them a reasonbale powerful engine

[broadrun96]

So with no available Gibson P2 car you can make the assumption the car wasn't competitive with the Gibson?? Ahh, the internet assumption based on guessing and video game play I assume??

[Mike E]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

So with no available Gibson P2 car you can make the assumption the car wasn't competitive with the Gibson?? Ahh, the internet assumption based on guessing and video game play I assume??

The car absolutely wasn't competitive in LMP2 form. It ran once at Le Mans, in 2017. It qualified 12 seconds off the P2 pole time, and finished second from last, 54 laps behind the P2 winner. Top speed was 15kph off the best P2. The car was a dog.

[canaglia]

just to be clear...
"in my opinion the 2018 updated multimatic-mazda was already an oreca comparable car about overall quality"


speaking about general quality of the multimatic-mazda, comparable to oreca produced cars for quality. The lmp2 car was mainly a riley disaster.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Mike E

The car absolutely wasn't competitive in LMP2 form. It ran once at Le Mans, in 2017. It qualified 12 seconds off the P2 pole time, and finished second from last, 54 laps behind the P2 winner. Top speed was 15kph off the best P2. The car was a dog.

No, the Riley ran. Multimatic took over after that point and used the joker to modify the car heavily and it then was actually decent in IMSA as well.

[gsmith2424]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

No, the Riley ran. Multimatic took over after that point and used the joker to modify the car heavily and it then was actually decent in IMSA as well.

I think the only reason they were so good in IMSA was due to the fact that they really pushed the engine hard. The only way the Riley could have been made competitive in ACO trim would be a redesign of the tub to make the greenhouse/cockpit smaller.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by gsmith2424

I think the only reason they were so good in IMSA was due to the fact that they really pushed the engine hard. The only way the Riley could have been made competitive in ACO trim would be a redesign of the tub to make the greenhouse/cockpit smaller.

They completely rebuilt the suspension of the car when Multimatic took over and trashed much of the Riley poor design. That's what made the car better and everyone involved in the actual team had said that multiple times. People should learn the evolution of that chassis. Somehow at the high speed areas of IMSA tracks didn't hold the car back so gonna just guess the greenhouse wasn't the problem at all

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by gsmith2424

I think the only reason they were so good in IMSA was due to the fact that they really pushed the engine hard. The only way the Riley could have been made competitive in ACO trim would be a redesign of the tub to make the greenhouse/cockpit smaller.

mazda dpi started winning races only from 2019 when AER finally delivered them a 600hp engine, infact as soon they got a good engine, jarvis scored 2019 daytona pole beating the old absolute record of toyota eagle (michelin tires helped a lot too). After disappointing 2017 performances, multimatic dropped riley, leaving to its fate the lmp2 car and took the exclusive duty for the mazda dpi that was updated with new rear suspensions and subframe + redesigned position of radiators and other improvements and made it finally competitive when equipped with a proper engine.
I actually didn't mention at all riley lmp2, because everybody knows how terrible it was... unstable, poor downforce and the cx of a concrete wall... in my original message I pointed out how multimatic managed to update mazda dpi to make that car become good and competitive in the same league of oreca produced cars, unlike onroak who didn't manage to improve the ligier that basically disappeared across the years despite the joker used. It's not even about dpi vs lmp2... it's about a better chassis manufacturer who managed to fix and improve its car, compared to another one who wasn't able to do it.
As happened with ligier, to improve riley was going to be however pointless since european lmp2 market already took its way to an oreca monopoly.

[joeb]

I suppose the new Riley P2 will be pretty decent kit since Porsche have put their eggs in that basket!

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by joeb

I suppose the new Riley P2 will be pretty decent kit since Porsche have put their eggs in that basket!

riley isn't involved anymore in lmp prototypes production, you can tell that by the fact they prefer using ligier lmp3 instead of their own lmp3 made car. Anyway it's multimatic the one involved with porsche and IMHO I actually doubt there will be a lot of next-gen multimatic lmp2 around, a big customer program isn't multimatic business model for what has been seen so far.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by canaglia

riley isn't involved anymore in lmp prototypes production, you can tell that by the fact they prefer using ligier lmp3 instead of their own lmp3 made car. Anyway it's multimatic the one involved with porsche and IMHO I actually doubt there will be a lot of next-gen multimatic lmp2 around, a big customer program isn't multimatic business model for what has been seen so far.

Oops i wrote down the wrong company, yes I meant Multimatic.

But you brought up a good point, outside of Oreca, the current P2 manufacturers don't have a support system (because there are no cars to support) so that is another layer of business they will need to develop along with the cars. Ligier should be fine with their support of LMP3, and Dallara supports single seaters with ease, but it has been a while since Multimatic has sold and supported customer cars. But they are going to be developing the new Mustang GT3 so that will need a support system too.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by joeb

Oops i wrote down the wrong company, yes I meant Multimatic.

But you brought up a good point, outside of Oreca, the current P2 manufacturers don't have a support system (because there are no cars to support) so that is another layer of business they will need to develop along with the cars. Ligier should be fine with their support of LMP3, and Dallara supports single seaters with ease, but it has been a while since Multimatic has sold and supported customer cars. But they are going to be developing the new Mustang GT3 so that will need a support system too.

Speaking of racing programs, as recent ford gt gte/gtlm and mazda dpi programs proved, multimatic prefers to work as manufacturer technical and racing partner instead of selling cars to customers as ligier and oreca use to do as core business. Not to mention that porsche lmdh aside, they are also producing amg one, valkyrie, valhalla and who knows what else carbon based not revealed yet. Even if they would like, it's unlikely they could make lots of lmp2 chassis because of their already intense scheduled production rate.

Anyway, WEC/IMSA porsche program will be the next big thing in motorsport considering multimatic, porsche and penske will be all under the same umbrella.... it reminds me late '90s bmw V12 lmr made by williams f1, bmw and schnitzer singeries.

[Coach Ep]

Originally Posted by joeb

Oops i wrote down the wrong company, yes I meant Multimatic.

But you brought up a good point, outside of Oreca, the current P2 manufacturers don't have a support system (because there are no cars to support) so that is another layer of business they will need to develop along with the cars. Ligier should be fine with their support of LMP3, and Dallara supports single seaters with ease, but it has been a while since Multimatic has sold and supported customer cars. But they are going to be developing the new Mustang GT3 so that will need a support system too.

Also, keep in mind that
A) the new LMP2s won't be racing on track before 2025 aka 2,5 years from now, giving the company plenty of time to set up a dedicated support department, and
B) Multimatic's customer support might very well be focused on Porsche LMDh privateers cars instead of their own new LMP2 product (assuming there will be one or more made available).

[broadrun96]

And with all of them notes having LMDh cars and Dallara with 2 programs you have to wonder how tough that customer support in LMP2 will be. As we have seen there's definitely interest in the cars and AoP should help spread the load. Add any new programs to that base chassis and spares could be tough. But good for the builders having product and they all have multiple programs going that will demand as much time as LMDh/GTP needs in GT or single seaters. And Dallara will have an entire field to outfit soon enough as well

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by canaglia

riley isn't involved anymore in lmp prototypes production, you can tell that by the fact they prefer using ligier lmp3 instead of their own lmp3 made car. Anyway it's multimatic the one involved with porsche and IMHO I actually doubt there will be a lot of next-gen multimatic lmp2 around, a big customer program isn't multimatic business model for what has been seen so far.

That Riley LMP3 Lego car is now Ave no Riley any longer and he only brings it (the only one) out occasionally with SVRA.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

Multimatic's customer support might very well be focused on Porsche LMDh privateers cars instead of their own new LMP2 product

Most likely scenario

[Mike E]

Is it possible to buy a Multimatic LMP2 now? Have they ever built or displayed one, ie not a Riley-Multimatic?

If not, it makes the four constructor cartel even more unfair to anyone else who might want to build a chassis. And if Multimatic only build and service LMDh's what is the pont of awarding them an LMP2 license?

[PhilipR]

With LMDh being the focus could we risk having same issue as we are having now, 1 manufacturer focusing mainly on LMP2 and having a monopoly over the class whilst the others are focusing on LMDh?

With Ligier only having Lamborghini thus far and with their customer infrastructure that they already have I would not be surprised if they put more focus on LMP2 and availablity for customers that will make teams buy their chasis rather than the others.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by Mike E

Is it possible to buy a Multimatic LMP2 now? Have they ever built or displayed one, ie not a Riley-Multimatic?

If not, it makes the four constructor cartel even more unfair to anyone else who might want to build a chassis. And if Multimatic only build and service LMDh's what is the pont of awarding them an LMP2 license?

Well that's true, but at the same time I can't say there are many other companies in the world so much involved in motorsport composite/carbon manufacturing, or however with enough production assets able to be a lmp2 supplier. The only one that comes in my mind is japanese toray carbon magic, the company that produces and supplies carbon tubs to GT500.
But in any case when you already know that private teams will move toward a single supplier that dominated the market (oreca), it doesn't make much sense, strategically wise, to focus and invest a lot in lmp2 business. Not to mention that multimatic has however a different business model.

[Mike E]

Sure, but part of the reason for not many companies being capable of building batches of formula cars is because of the rise of spec series

And if Multimatic's business model is to work closely with manufacturers and not support a privateer customer base then they should not be in the LMP2 business.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Mike E

Sure, but part of the reason for not many companies being capable of building batches of formula cars is because of the rise of spec series

And if Multimatic's business model is to work closely with manufacturers and not support a privateer customer base then they should not be in the LMP2 business.

It does seem odd to limit the market to 4 companies if they don't bother to offer chassis. Are the conditions that made the ACO move to a limited construction basis a few years ago still in place? or has the sportscar and economic world moved to a place where other scenarios should be considered?

[Coach Ep]

Originally Posted by joeb

It does seem odd to limit the market to 4 companies if they don't bother to offer chassis. Are the conditions that made the ACO move to a limited construction basis a few years ago still in place? or has the sportscar and economic world moved to a place where other scenarios should be considered?

Are you asking if the ACO is in touch with the 'real racing world'? Cause if so I have 3 letters (well actually 2 letters + 1 number haha) in response for you!

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by joeb

It does seem odd to limit the market to 4 companies if they don't bother to offer chassis. Are the conditions that made the ACO move to a limited construction basis a few years ago still in place? or has the sportscar and economic world moved to a place where other scenarios should be considered?

The conditions are in place yeah. 4 constructors and you're only allowed 1 upgrade package to your car. So the cars are what they are now, and that's it.

Realistically you can't buy anything but ORECA because the demand for the cars is so low that building and servicing them isn't worth Dallara/Ligier/Multimatics time.

By limiting who is licensed to build them, and disallowing upgrades during the lifetime of the car (apart from the one joker), you force everyone to take the best car and that's it. LMP2 was varied before because people would then come along a year or two later with a better car - costs were fine because there was so much choice there was always an option. The costs now are higher as everyones cars cost the full cost cap and that's it.

There's a nice conspiracy to be had with it being ORECA too of course. This car started life in the old regulations, was upgraded to P1, and then adapted to a P2. ORECA had a big head-start on everyone else.