ZZ2 - What's REAL, What's NOT .... or MAYBE!

[driftwood]

and who is on this International panel?
a team of folk who know about older race cars/ follow the historic race car scene like people do here and read old race magazines keep some data etc or do they just adjudicate over the info provided and send to the gallows if they do like the cut of your jib?

[Chris Townsend]

Originally Posted by Dr. Alexander Lienau

I think a complete register of all racing cars from 1901 to 1983 is a near impossible task.

Careful Dr Lienau, you don't know how ambitious (or obsessive) Mr Brown and I actually are! (But it would have to run to the early 90s to cover Swift DB4s)

Chris

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by Andrew Fellowes

Why could it not run against other late 1980s cars? assuming of course that you have a class for that age group. This is an extreme case of course but in Europe can an HTP be granted only to a car that is in the spec it was built to? For example a 1971 F2 FVA car that ran internationally in 1972 with BDF. How is that then classified?

As we are but temporary custodians I would agree with Dr Lienau regarding a public website, Allen the costs you refer to would I assume be that of at least one full time employee?

Andrew

If a 1971 car ran in 1972, then you can run it in historics in its 1972 spec. The March-Buick never ran internationally so wouldn't be an accepted specification. I wish I'd never started this now

Yes, the cost would be broadly one full-time employee. Web hosting is pretty cheap nowadays so wouldn't be a significant proportion of the cost.

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by Chris Townsend

(But it would have to run to the early 90s to cover Swift DB4s)

OK, that's Chris's obsession nicely illustrated. Mine is illustrated by my delight earlier today in finding the results sheets for St Ursanne 1972 have been scanned and are on the web.

Philippe Rauch was fourth in the over 1600cc G8/9 class in a Brabham-Wankel. Go on, you know you care!

[Andrew Fellowes]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

OK, that's Chris's obsession nicely illustrated. Mine is illustrated by... Philippe Rauch was fourth in the over 1600cc G8/9 class in a Brabham-Wankel. Go on, you know you care!

Oh I do!

[driftwood]

is it a 12a or 13B wankel or the NSU Ro 80 motor

[Chris Townsend]

But have you seen the entry for Hangartner's 712M in the 1973 sheet?

Chris

[phdm]

1.2 Appendix K applies to cars which are either original competition cars, or cars built to exactly the same specification as models with international competition history complying with the International rules of the period.
Cars without an international competition history but which have a competition history in national championship events or other significant national events of equivalent status may also be accepted.
If a model has not taken part in period in international races, HTPs of corresponding cars must be submitted to the HMSC supported by evidence from the relevant ASN that the model has a history in period of competition in events of national significance.

In article 1.2 of Appendix K, the FIA does not restrict the specifications of cars to the ones of models with period international history but opens the door to "national championship events or significant national events of equivalent status".

I am wondering which objective criteria will be considered in order to determine the significance and status of the events and to accept or not the proposed specification.

It would be interesting to know this before starting an expensive restoration of what could even be a very genuine car.

Could Jeremy comment ?

Thank you.

phdm

[Simon Hadfield]

When we restored Bob Tabor's ex Templeton twin cam Lotus 22 we were told that it would never get FIA papers.... and when a mate enquired about the Kincraft.....

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by phdm

In article 1.2 of Appendix K, the FIA does not restrict the specifications of cars to the ones of models with period international history but opens the door to "national championship events or significant national events of equivalent status".

I am wondering which objective criteria will be considered in order to determine the significance and status of the events and to accept or not the proposed specification.

It would be interesting to know this before starting an expensive restoration of what could even be a very genuine car.

Could Jeremy comment ?

Thank you.

phdm

My view on "national championship events or significant national events of equivalent status" would include all the MSA sanctioned BRITISH championships so that would include the British Hillclimb Championship and the British Sprint Championship both of which were RAC, and now MSA, sanctioned championships.
Thus the March 722 with Buick engine could, if entered in either of the above, be elligible for FIA paperwork on this basis.

How about cars that ran in the European Hillclimb Championship? I assume they would all be elligible!

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by Chris Townsend

But have you seen the entry for Hangartner's 712M in the 1973 sheet?

With the '6' after it? Yes, I had. I just hadn't had time to look up 712M-6 to see if that's what it might mean.

[Chris Townsend]

712M-6 was Perrot's car and is not known again until the mid 1970s, still in Switzerland.

Makes you think...

Also, could Steve Wilkinson tell us more about Don Robinson and his cars. I know that the Lotus 69 was 'ex Fittipaldi' but nothing about the others

Chris

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by Chris Townsend

712M-6 was Perrot's car and is not known again until the mid 1970s, still in Switzerland.

Makes you think...

Also, could Steve Wilkinson tell us more about Don Robinson and his cars. I know that the Lotus 69 was 'ex Fittipaldi' but nothing about the others

Chris

I assume you are refering to the TWO McLarens?

[driftwood]

funny i saw the don robinson advert in 74 AS last night for the 69 car!! his advert was "amusing"

[Jeremy Hall]

Originally Posted by phdm

In article 1.2 of Appendix K, the FIA does not restrict the specifications of cars to the ones of models with period international history but opens the door to "national championship events or significant national events of equivalent status".

I am wondering which objective criteria will be considered in order to determine the significance and status of the events and to accept or not the proposed specification.

It would be interesting to know this before starting an expensive restoration of what could even be a very genuine car.

Could Jeremy comment ?

Thank you.

phdm

I would love to comment but I post here under my own name and I regret to say these sites are monitored and on the occassions when I have spoken frankly about these and other matters demands for my sacking follow quite shortly afterwards- seriously. On other sites I now post always under pseudonyms
However as the ACCUS inspector for cars applying for HTP in the USA I have been asked the same question and currently am unable to provide any answer. I understand that the Appendix K working group of the FIA HMSC are currently engaged in trying to come up with a definition.

[phdm]

Jemremy,

My intention was certainly not to put you in an uncomfortable position.

I just hope that the "people monitoring the site" do appreciate the need for clarity that I (we) have.

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by Chris Townsend

712M-6 was Perrot's car and is not known again until the mid 1970s, still in Switzerland.

Makes you think...

I have it with René Chaboudez in 1977 but nothing else.

Originally Posted by Chris Townsend

Also, could Steve Wilkinson tell us more about Don Robinson and his cars. I know that the Lotus 69 was 'ex Fittipaldi' but nothing about the others

His Lotus-Nova 69 was described as ex-Wilson Fittipaldi (AS 18 Apr 1974 p43). He then had the ex-Bill Wood McLaren M10B for 1975 but wrote it off at the Easter Harewood in 1976 (see http://www.oldracingcars.com/f5000/mclaren/m10b.htm)

[Jeremy Hall]

Originally Posted by phdm

Jemremy,

My intention was certainly not to put you in an uncomfortable position.

I just hope that the "people monitoring the site" do appreciate the need for clarity that I (we) have.

I wish I could share your confidence. How on earth you define the relative importance of an overall national championship winner ex say Jamaica compared to the same car ex USA both running to totally different rules I cannot even begin to consider especially if the cars in question were running 40 plus years ago.
Fortunately it is not my problem and during the time IU was very involved with the question we understood the likely problems and kept to International only.

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

He then had the ex-Bill Wood McLaren M10B for 1975 but wrote it off at the Easter Harewood in 1976

Don Robinson is still a member of Liverpool Motor Club and the last time I chatted to him I asked about the M10B. It was a mess and was scrap after his Harewood accident. Roy Lane assisted in his purchase of the replacement the McLaren M14A.

[phdm]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

I have it with René Chaboudez in 1977 but nothing else.

712M-6 was with Jacques Joliat (CH) in 1999

According to information received from JJ the car was ex:
- Perrot
- Chaboudez
- Epaillis (F)

Sold by JJ to Sepp Mayer

[Clive Brown]

I suppose if you bought a car purporting to be 712M-6 which turned out not to be genuine , you'd be as sick as a Perrot ....

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by phdm

712M-6 was with Jacques Joliat (CH) in 1999

According to information received from JJ the car was ex:
- Perrot
- Chaboudez
- Epaillis (F)

Sold by JJ to Sepp Mayer

Thanks Philippe. Any chance there were other owners or did it go straight from Perrot to Chaboudez?

[phdm]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

Thanks Philippe. Any chance there were other owners or did it go straight from Perrot to Chaboudez?

No info