ALMS Round 4: Lime Rock

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by FalkenALMS

Unfortunately, the rule that let us keep our second place finish at Laguna is the same rule that let L5 keep their win at LRP. Both of us were stripped of our points and prize money.

In our case, there was no foul play. Our car DID stall in post-race tech, just not as fast as the officials preferred. We can't say too much about what happened, but know that the team still fought hard and clean to stay at the font and earned that second place finish and there was no foul play involved. It was not a case like Lime Rock when those penalized made a questionable sportsmanship move to take out a competitor.

As for the rule change, from a PR perspective, post-race penalties are a nightmare, especially when the TV broadcast is done and every media outlet worldwide has already posted the results. To re-release new results creates a mess. Not to mention all podium pictures are rendered useless, media lose out on money because they can't sell the photos, the podiums can't be re-shot and no interviews can be redone once the event is over. Not saying that's why the rule was made, just offering another view of the mess it creates. It may seem like a small task to others, but believe me, it's a nightmare.

I understand why the PR people like this method, but I just cannot agree with it. (though I appreciate you taking the time to explain it for those who didn't know why the rules are as they are) I particularly cannot agree with it when it is an on track incident, that would take a grand total of 15 seconds to review and see that a call needed to be made. Anybody and everybody who saw that incident knew it should be called. I can only imagine what the outcry would be, if that exact accident had been for the win overall, at a major event such as Sebring, Daytona or PLM.

Think about it for a second with this explanation. L5 won by punting off it's competitor. The results show a win, but the car was later penalized and given second place points, despite being the winner. The second place car in the results, is actually the winner in points, due to the penalty given. Try explaining that one in a press release.

[Mechanic Z]

The part that annoys me is not that they didn't take away the win after the race, it's that they had a couple of laps during which they could have penalized the L5 car, and they didn't. I don't like knee-jerk reaction penalties, but this was pretty obvious. Basically, what ended up happening was ESM getting 'penalized' for the race director's error.

[Maelochs]

I'd have to say, race control should have gone into overdrive to make a decision in that case. Cue up the videotape (or mark the digital video time stamp) and review it from every angle until it makes sense.

[BullMan]

Race control also had time after the race to hand down a penalty. The P1 podium would be first, and even that is 5-10 minutes after the race ends. Makes no sense.

If there is a class where the results are in question, just hold off on the podium and awards ceremony for that class. This isn't difficult to fix.

[EricS]

Even the teams involved knew there would be a penalty as they were encouraging their drivers to hurry up and increase/decrease the gap in case a stop & hold was called.

There's always a good 10-15 minutes before the trophies are handed out. Even more time for them to apply the penalty.

Lame-o excuse

[FalkenALMS]

All valid points.

But keep in mind, the second the checker flag drops, camera crews and broadcasters are already interviewing team owners, engineers and co drivers. Photographers already grabbed the winning shots, and series officials are already scurrying to grab the podium winners. As soon as the class winners get out of the cars, they're interviewed, and press releases are even halfway done by the time the race ends. Sure, there are 10 or so minutes between the checker to the podium, but all of the winner coverage has already begun. It takes 10 minutes alone to herd up all of the class podium finishers and get them over to the podium. To issue a penalty after the race, alert the podium organizers and announcer, chase down the new podium finishers, interview them, and get them to podium, it would be another 20-30 minutes. By then, the TV broadcast is over and fans will only have watched the commentators try to distract the audience while a verdict is issued.

Not saying this is the reason why, or that the penalties are right or wrong. Just offering some behind the scenes info.

[BullMan]

Originally Posted by FalkenALMS

All valid points.

But keep in mind, the second the checker flag drops, camera crews and broadcasters are already interviewing team owners, engineers and co drivers. Photographers already grabbed the winning shots, and series officials are already scurrying to grab the podium winners. As soon as the class winners get out of the cars, they're interviewed, and press releases are even halfway done by the time the race ends. Sure, there are 10 or so minutes between the checker to the podium, but all of the winner coverage has already begun. It takes 10 minutes alone to herd up all of the class podium finishers and get them over to the podium. To issue a penalty after the race, alert the podium organizers and announcer, chase down the new podium finishers, interview them, and get them to podium, it would be another 20-30 minutes. By then, the TV broadcast is over and fans will only have watched the commentators try to distract the audience while a verdict is issued.

Not saying this is the reason why, or that the penalties are right or wrong. Just offering some behind the scenes info.

Comprising the integrity of the series for the sake of media coverage is ridiculous. This is a sporting event, not a reality TV show. NASCAR may think that their racing is entertainment above all else, but in sports cars the fans expect to see the correct (and logical) decisions made to make the results correct.

[broadrun96]

And yet I havent heard a peep from anyone in the past. Pretend it's not outrage at L5 all you want but it is ALWAYS whining because X team got away with something. As for the "purity" that ship sailed the minute sponsors were put on the side of the car, so if you want to complain about integrity than complain about that. But even if every viewer paid the gate price to watch the event the series would fold within races.
Apparently Elkins, Atherton and others would be in the lower 5% of intelligence here instead of being INFINITELY smarter than most and see a big picture of series survival. But you could have a quick pure death instead I guess. And if the whining is really that L5 has the win but none of the perks (points and prize money) where is the series integrity damaged? The lost points matter to the teams and influence the season but guess all the crying that they get to keep the pictures and apparently they award championships based on the number of pictures on your wall??

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

And yet I havent heard a peep from anyone in the past. Pretend it's not outrage at L5 all you want but it is ALWAYS whining because X team got away with something. As for the "purity" that ship sailed the minute sponsors were put on the side of the car, so if you want to complain about integrity than complain about that. But even if every viewer paid the gate price to watch the event the series would fold within races.
Apparently Elkins, Atherton and others would be in the lower 5% of intelligence here instead of being INFINITELY smarter than most and see a big picture of series survival. But you could have a quick pure death instead I guess. And if the whining is really that L5 has the win but none of the perks (points and prize money) where is the series integrity damaged? The lost points matter to the teams and influence the season but guess all the crying that they get to keep the pictures and apparently they award championships based on the number of pictures on your wall??

I'm not really sure what you are on about. This has nothing to do with it being L5 as the guilty party in the incident. It is simply a bad call.

[Zurbert82]

I was actually at the exit of West Bend when the incident occurred between Briscoe and Cosmo. As the safety car was leading the field around I noticed Cosmo ahead of Briscoe. The next lap, after the safety car went in, I saw Cosmo spin coming in to West bend. I felt pretty bad for ESM, and though I didn't see it, I had a feeling Briscoe gave him a little tap from behind.

Despite the great explanations from Falken PR, it was still a very bizarre result. I did notice Briscoe/Tucker got 4th place, not 2nd place points - http://www.alms.com/standings. Franchitti was credited with 2nd place points. Is this correct?

Anyway, here are my pics from the weekend http://zurbert82.smugmug.com/photos/...humb&rand=5989

[EricS]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

And yet I havent heard a peep from anyone in the past.

Isn't this the first time such an egregious punt has happened near the end of the race when this rule has been in place? It was just added after Sebring.

[Zurbert82]

Originally Posted by Matt

My photos from Yesterday and today.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/98452123@N05/

Great shots for a point and shoot! I like the slow shutter speed shots. It always bothers me when somebody posts pics where it looks like the cars are parked on the track, with no motion blur whatsoever.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Zurbert82

Great shots for a point and shoot! I like the slow shutter speed shots. It always bothers me when somebody posts pics where it looks like the cars are parked on the track, with no motion blur whatsoever.

Yeah that's the absolute one thing I cannot stand either, haha.

[rwindle]

Originally Posted by EricS

Isn't this the first time such an egregious punt has happened near the end of the race when this rule has been in place? It was just added after Sebring.

I could be wrong, (and probably am), but I thought that specific rule was instituted after the 2012 Sebring race due to the Ferrari bumping Joey Hand's BMW in the closing moments of that event.

[Mechanic Z]

Originally Posted by FalkenALMS

All valid points.

But keep in mind, the second the checker flag drops, camera crews and broadcasters are already interviewing team owners, engineers and co drivers. Photographers already grabbed the winning shots, and series officials are already scurrying to grab the podium winners. As soon as the class winners get out of the cars, they're interviewed, and press releases are even halfway done by the time the race ends. Sure, there are 10 or so minutes between the checker to the podium, but all of the winner coverage has already begun. It takes 10 minutes alone to herd up all of the class podium finishers and get them over to the podium. To issue a penalty after the race, alert the podium organizers and announcer, chase down the new podium finishers, interview them, and get them to podium, it would be another 20-30 minutes. By then, the TV broadcast is over and fans will only have watched the commentators try to distract the audience while a verdict is issued.

Not saying this is the reason why, or that the penalties are right or wrong. Just offering some behind the scenes info.

That makes a lot of sense, which is why I don't get why Paul Walters didn't call them in before the race's end. It would have had to be a quick decision, but I think It would have been a fairly easy call.

I guess everybody knows how Vette fans felt after Laguna '09 now!

[Dead-Eye]

Originally Posted by rwindle

I could be wrong, (and probably am)

Yep .

http://www.imsaracing.net/2013/alms/...IN%2013-07.pdf

It says 27 March 2013 here.

[FalkenALMS]

Originally Posted by BullMan

Comprising the integrity of the series for the sake of media coverage is ridiculous. This is a sporting event, not a reality TV show. NASCAR may think that their racing is entertainment above all else, but in sports cars the fans expect to see the correct (and logical) decisions made to make the results correct.

As I said, my posts are not ANY kind of explanation for the rule. I'm just offering insight on how it affects the participants.

[wheelz22]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

I understand why the PR people like this method, but I just cannot agree with it. (though I appreciate you taking the time to explain it for those who didn't know why the rules are as they are) I particularly cannot agree with it when it is an on track incident, that would take a grand total of 15 seconds to review and see that a call needed to be made. Anybody and everybody who saw that incident knew it should be called. I can only imagine what the outcry would be, if that exact accident had been for the win overall, at a major event such as Sebring, Daytona or PLM.

Think about it for a second with this explanation. L5 won by punting off it's competitor. The results show a win, but the car was later penalized and given second place points, despite being the winner. The second place car in the results, is actually the winner in points, due to the penalty given. Try explaining that one in a press release.

Foge....I'd have to say I'm with you 100 per cent on this one...if they hustled, this could have been squared away quickly....

[FalkenALMS]

Originally Posted by Zurbert82

Despite the great explanations from Falken PR, it was still a very bizarre result. I did notice Briscoe/Tucker got 4th place, not 2nd place points - http://www.alms.com/standings. Franchitti was credited with 2nd place points. Is this correct?

From ESM's twitter:
ESM Racing ‏@ESMRacing 7 Jul @joeyselmants No, they received 3rd place points. Had penalty been issued ASAP, #ALMS deemed they would have finished 3rd w/ penalty.

[Dead-Eye]

Originally Posted by FalkenALMS

In our case, there was no foul play. Our car DID stall in post-race tech, just not as fast as the officials preferred. We can't say too much about what happened, but know that the team still fought hard and clean to stay at the font and earned that second place finish and there was no foul play involved. It was not a case like Lime Rock when those penalized made a questionable sportsmanship move to take out a competitor.

Just to be clear, I wasn't suggesting that there was anything beyond a mistake or a technical problem involved at Laguna. I really like your team, but I still think you should have been DQ'd that day

[Mechanic Z]

Originally Posted by FalkenALMS

As I said, my posts are not ANY kind of explanation for the rule. I'm just offering insight on how it affects the participants.

Thanks for the inside info, Kelly. Cool to have a team take the time to help race fans better understand something that wasn't even connected to their car.
Yet another reason why fans should cheer on Team Falken Tire!

[TRspitfirefan]

Originally Posted by Mechanic Z

Thanks for the inside info, Kelly. Cool to have a team take the time to help race fans better understand something that wasn't even connected to their car.
Yet another reason why fans should cheer on Team Falken Tire!

+1

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by Mechanic Z

I guess everybody knows how Vette fans felt after Laguna '09 now!

You don't have to be a Vette fan to remember that disgrace forever.

[gregtummer]

At the start of the race, the track temperature was 127.4 degrees.

[fieldodreams79]

Just had the opportunity to watch the replay while working yesterday, man, the heat looked insufferable for the drivers. Typical LR race, close quarters and loads of contact. Doesn't excuse Briscoe punting Cosmo, at all. Abysmal.

Typical ALMS race; great battle in P1 until one of them breaks (typical Dyson). Typical GT race: dogfight to the end.

All gives us something to talk about and good stuff all 'round. Bring on Canadian Tire.....I mean Mosport!!!

Originally Posted by Dead-Eye

Yep .

http://www.imsaracing.net/2013/alms/...IN%2013-07.pdf

It says 27 March 2013 here.

Oh, how very NASCAR of them.