Is Button good for McLaren?

[Aysedasi]

Again, in a Kimi, get me the sod out of here, kind of way...........?

[Peralta]

As long as whitmarsh is at helm, Button can stay there if he wants. I'm convinced Button is Twitmarch's love child. Did you here the comments after the race about what a great drive Button had oh and by the way Perez finished 7th.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by Peralta

As long as whitmarsh is at helm, Button can stay there if he wants. I'm convinced Button is Twitmarch's love child. Did you here the comments after the race about what a great drive Button had oh and by the way Perez finished 7th.

Maybe Jenson wil up his game next year when Ross takes over from Martin...

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Peralta

As long as whitmarsh is at helm, Button can stay there if he wants. I'm convinced Button is Twitmarch's love child. Did you here the comments after the race about what a great drive Button had oh and by the way Perez finished 7th.

No great surprise, Perez is going. A bit like Kimi losing his halo at Renault once the Ferrari deal was announced.

[Dragger]

Originally Posted by Peralta

As long as whitmarsh is at helm, Button can stay there if he wants. I'm convinced Button is Twitmarch's love child. Did you here the comments after the race about what a great drive Button had oh and by the way Perez finished 7th.

Yeah I saw that. Perez had a great race at COTA but didn't get much regocnition for it.

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

Originally Posted by Dragger

Yeah I saw that. Perez had a great race at COTA but didn't get much regocnition for it.

Perez has been driving better than Button for a while, but JB has had bad luck and because the 2013 McLaren is the 2013 McLaren a good result in that thing is 7th.

[Bononi]

Yeah, a little bit late or he never stood a chance... poor Perez. I mean, I'm sorry for him, but he's not exactly poor with all that sponsorship.

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by Bononi

Yeah, a little bit late or he never stood a chance... poor Perez. I mean, I'm sorry for him, but he's not exactly poor with all that sponsorship.

Looking at the bigger picture if I may, Sergio Perez should be in F1

[Bononi]

Agreed. But I have to say we're facing strange days in F1.

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by Bononi

Agreed. But I have to say we're facing strange days in F1.

You are right of course Bon.. We could really do with some help at this moment..

[Knowlesy]

Well Sergio has plenty, don't worry. He packs a financial punch. What is holding him back is that he has been exposed as a distinctly average F1 driver.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

Well Sergio has plenty, don't worry. He packs a financial punch. What is holding him back is that he has been exposed as a distinctly average F1 driver.

There's a Kovalainen thread here that requires your attention too Knowlesy!

[Knowlesy]

Well when I last looked there were people in there hoping he gets a race seat in 2014, causing me to break out in hives. It is therefore best I avoid it.

[FAS33]

Is Button good at all? history suggests that he is a pretty average pilot.

[Peter Mallett]

Well, I guess it's all relative really. A World Championship and multiple race wins may be average to some.

[davyboy]

Button is good when the car is good, he's not when it isn't. OK, you could say that about all drivers, but in the modern era turning a poor car [and team] into a good one has been the key to dominance [and greatness]. Too many times Button has been a team leader... in a team with ample resources but a bad car... and that situation has prevailed.

Is he good for McLaren ? Only if there's somebody in the second seat capable of developing the car for him.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Button is good when the car is good, he's not when it isn't. OK, you could say that about all drivers,

It is true about all drivers, without exception.

but in the modern era turning a poor car [and team] into a good one has been the key to dominance [and greatness]. Too many times Button has been a team leader... in a team with ample resources but a bad car... and that situation has prevailed.

Is he good for McLaren ? Only if there's somebody in the second seat capable of developing the car for him.

None of which makes him an average driver.

Your post also suggests that McLaren is a poor team. Surely that is a wide generalisation? They produced a disastrous car this year but that doesn't make them a poor team.

Look at Ferrari? Alonso, who is possibly the best out there has struggled. But arguably the Ferrari is a much better car than the McLaren.

Then again take the case of Mark Webber. He's driving the best car on the grid and discounting his retirements, he hasn't made it look as quick as Vettel. Which by the standrads of your post suggests that Webber is even more average than Button.

Personally I think we look at the wrong elements when assessing whether a driver is good or bad for a team. If, as Button has done in three of the teams he's raced with, a driver gets the team on his side then that is half the battle. But these days we don't have the Petersens or Regazzonis, Clarkes or Hills (G) to make a poor car look good because there are too many outside influences, such as tyres, to get in the way.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

None of which makes him an average driver.

Look at Ferrari? Alonso, who is possibly the best out there has struggled. But arguably the Ferrari is a much better car than the McLaren.

Then again take the case of Mark Webber. He's driving the best car on the grid and discounting his retirements, he hasn't made it look as quick as Vettel. Which by the standrads of your post suggests that Webber is even more average than Button.

Button is well above average but he's not the best out there right now. Neither is Alonso, neither is Webber. They are all lacking 'the complete package'. It's why all 3 have been relentlessly beaten by somebody else down through the years and the two remaining in F1 will continue to be.

These days, the effort of a driver behind the wheel on a Sunday afternoon is only a fraction of what's required to generate success. They need to galvanise the team around them and do much more in the car development department.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by davyboy

It's why all 3 have been relentlessly beaten by somebody else down through the years and the two remaining in F1 will continue to be.

Now that is a 'sweeper'........

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

Well when I last looked there were people in there hoping he gets a race seat in 2014, causing me to break out in hives. It is therefore best I avoid it.

OK I was rather hoping ... coz I am also getting hives!

[spider]

Button's a great number 2.

He's a good regular points scorer. He's not particularly fast - I'm certain there's at least 10 drivers on the grid faster than him in the dry in anything other than a perfect car, but, with the endurance-esque regulations next year I bet he'll benefit from this.

He's also very good with the media, a good looking presentable bloke - ideal for sponsors such as Santander etc. Honda also like him, and he's got a good following in Japan too.

He gets on well with the Management at McLaren, and long-term will be a good ambassador for the team.

Also, he's outscored Perez - so really, with all things considered, if anyone was going to be replaced, it was going to be Sergio.

Jenson isn't suitable to be the number 1 driver for a front-running team, but he's absolutely a great person to have in your second seat.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Now that is a 'sweeper'........

... sorry I should have added 'and that's a fact' too

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Button's great. I was real worried when he went to McLaren but I think he proved he could hang with Lewis, but in different ways. As drivers they were polar opposites (and Lewis is still the better of the two) but over a season one type is not necessarily better than the other. Just look at the record books.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Button is well above average but he's not the best out there right now. Neither is Alonso, neither is Webber. They are all lacking 'the complete package'. It's why all 3 have been relentlessly beaten by somebody else down through the years and the two remaining in F1 will continue to be.

These days, the effort of a driver behind the wheel on a Sunday afternoon is only a fraction of what's required to generate success. They need to galvanise the team around them and do much more in the car development department.

Dave, come on man, I accept the comments about our Jense and Webbo but Fernando, really?

He's only been beaten by his teammate once in his F1 career and that was Lewis in what turned out to be a ridiculous state of affairs at McLaren which lost both of them the title that year.

Other than that he has seen off allcomers in the same car and against other drivers in comparable equipment (Kimi in 05 and Schu in 06) until the Red Bull Vettel axis gained ascendency in the last couple of years.

Lewis is not the driver he was (and I really hate to say that because as a driver I've always liked him even if I can't stick the person!) but Alonso has never dipped in form or commitment that I can see, so unless Kimi is really fired up next year, I can't see him having any problem from the Finn and I really doubt that Vettel would handle him if they have equal cars.

Button is so much a known quantity that I am surprised he still gets rated so highly. He has become the Patrese of current F1, even if he did win that title! Can be super on the right day but really needs a race winning car to offer anything of note.

Ironically as the season comes to a close Perez has woken up and Button's gone to sleep, maybe it was the knowledge that his drive was safe so needs to just back off and regroup for next season?

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Dave, come on man, I accept the comments about our Jense and Webbo but Fernando, really?

He's only been beaten by his team mate once in his F1 career and that was Lewis in what turned out to be a ridiculous state of affairs at McLaren which lost both of them the title that year.

Other than that he has seen off allcomers in the same car and against other drivers in comparable equipment (Kimi in 05 and Schu in 06) until the Red Bull Vettel axis gained ascendency in the last couple of years.

This is my point. Alonso, like Webber and Button have been by and large fine against their team mates in the same or similar cars [with one exception]. What they lack is the ability to develop a car that enables them to maximise their talent to deliver the ultimate in results beating all comers. The reason this matters is because all three of these guys have been in teams, leaders in many cases, that have had enormous resources at their disposal.