[Rules] The FIA - what's occurring there?

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Don't disagree at all. In fact, I have advocated this for years because I have long felt that whatever happens in F1 eventually, and sometimes very quickly, trickles down through all forms of motor racing.

I see this in those other branches of motorsport, where lower levels of the sport usually emulate what the drivers in the higher national classes are doing. For example, some of the saloon car racers in the UK will do what they think drivers in the BTCC are getting away with. And, unfortunately, some commentators almost encourage this behaviour, with comments such as they expect a bit of "rubbing", etc. during these close races. That's rubbish, because every regulation book that I have read for circuit racing states that it is a non contact sport, as it was in my days on the track.

Couldn't agree more.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Possibly because those twenty so called top drivers mostly, maybe not all, seem to believe that they must win at all costs; they cannot be trusted to "police" themselves. Case in point, and has been said in this discussion but not referenced any particular driver, was Bianci who, even knowing that a car had gone off the track in appalling conditions, barely slowed down at the same point. I am sure there have been plenty of other such incidents.

Agree. I called out the Bianci situation earlier. In that I think F1 is somewhat still reeling from that accident. And they have opted to not try to reinforce the driver responsibility aspect, but remove as much potential for driver misbehavior to put them in a similar situation.

I understand their approach, but it then creates an overly cautious workflow that we see today with more red flags and less things like double yellows or VSC. Which then creates other problems. They need to get the right balance and I personally think they have let the pendulum swing too much in one direction. As with other posts here I agree other solutions in other series works and F1 should look at those and should also come down hard on driver offenses. I think one problem they have is that most all of these new policies are in the name of "safety" and turning the knob down from eleven to something like eight or nine may not play well in the media (i.e., "F1 is reversing policies that increased driver and trackworker safety")

Richard

[Mike Harte]

However, Richard, the FIA has the capability to send electronic signals to the cars and, I believe, currently does so to activate yellow warning lights on the drivers' steering wheels, and maybe red as well.

So, it would be quite easy for them to remotely activate a speed reduction similar to the pit lane one that they all have.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

However, Richard, the FIA has the capability to send electronic signals to the cars and, I believe, currently does so to activate yellow warning lights on the drivers' steering wheels, and maybe red as well.

So, it would be quite easy for them to remotely activate a speed reduction similar to the pit lane one that they all have.

There is a potential problem with any potential remote speed limiting of the cars though Mike, if applied instantly. If a car is cornering safely at (for example) twice the pit lane speed limit, cutting the engine power could seriously unbalance the car and cause an accident. The bare minimum I would suggest would be that there is a specified delay between the drivers being told to reduce their speed, before the remote limit would be activated. (This system could also be gamed by competitive drivers to gain an advantage if they were at a part of the track that could be negotiated at the higher speed as the car coasted down to the limit).

[Mike Harte]

Oh, I do appreciate that, Viv, however with the collective brains that exist within the motor sport environment, I am certain that a system based on that technology could and, in my dubious opinion, should be brought in to effect. That would solve any legalistic problems as well as bring about more safety on the circuits.

[NaBUru38]

https://the-race.com/formula-1/f1-re...gary-anderson/

If a red flag has to come out in qualifying, it only needs to begin at the start/finish line and cover from there to the accident.

Agree.

The tyre change under red flags gives too many a get-out-of-jail-free card. The logic for allowing tyre changes is sound because there are safety concerns, with the risk of punctures or tyre damage that could lead to a puncture raised by the fact that the red flag could have been caused by an incident that left debris on the track.

But the solution would be that you have to fit the same compound tyres during a red flag stoppage.

Disagree. Instead, drivers that take new tyres should be sent to the back of the line, be it during safety cars, VSC or red flags.

There should be one start from the grid at the beginning of the race, but after that it should be either VSC interludes [...] and safety-car restarts.

Agree.

And as I said before, laps shouldn't be counted between a red flag and the following restart. Let cars get extra fuel if needed.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

And as I said before, laps shouldn't be counted between a red flag and the following restart. Let cars get extra fuel if needed.

In that situation... If red flags were very frequent (which they are not), it would be interesting to see the first team purposefully underfuel their car so they could run lighter than everyone else and then refuel during the red flag. But if their crystal ball works well enough to predict that situation, they might use it for other purposes (playing the stock market and making money).

Back to reality... Either setup the cars for refueling during race conditions, or leave it as is. If they start doing red flag refueling then that likely creates another set of safety issues? Are teams able to refuel anywhere but in the garage? Can they take the current fuel rigs into the pit lane?

Richard

[NaBUru38]

Cars get refuelled during qualifying, don't they?

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Then you heavily penalise drivers for these actions.

Safety shouldn't depend on drivers being unwilling to risk a penalty. Safety should be foll-proof.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

Cars get refuelled during qualifying, don't they?

Yes. But current regulations only allow it inside the garage. So I expect the refueling rigs are optimized for that situation. Are cars allowed in the garage during red flag or are they required to park in the pit lane? If they are not allowed back in the garage, then you would need to create mobile refueling rigs. So while a mobile refueling rig may not be as complex as years ago when refueling was about speed (even those really were not "mobile" as they were to reach into the pit box not to be carted around the pit lane itself), I expect the rigs might remain costly and hard to justify that cost just in the edge case of needing to refuel during red flags.

Richard

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

Safety should be foll-proof.

Unachievable short of not racing. Drivers will always have some responsibility to ensure safety. For example... what keeps drivers from mowing down people during pit stops? Personal driver responsibility to avoid people and drive appropriately for the conditions, not some type of AI that takes control of the cars to ensure they are safely piloted correctly down pitlane.

Richard

[chillibowl]

if they dont have enough FIA observers, technology is at a point where they should be able to remotely monitor garage activity which would allow them to monitor in real time any work done inside the garages during a red flag period and prevent any disallowed work to be carried out.

theoretically then that means they can also monitor in real time who changes tires and then drop them to the back of the pack when they eventually release the cars from their garages in a new order for the new formation lap...essentially wiping out the free tire change while also satisfying the need for those to change tires for safety reasons and the need to reorder the pack behind a SC.

could allow for more fuel if thats required because they can do that in the garage as well. if teams need to do more work, for other safety reasons,, let them and then drop them back even further down the new release order.

added benefit in cases of rain delays that the cars dont just sit out in the open getting drenched in water under those goofy umbrella tents etc.

would that work?

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

if they dont have enough FIA observers, technology is at a point where they should be able to remotely monitor garage activity which would allow them to monitor in real time any work done inside the garages during a red flag period and prevent any disallowed work to be carried out.

I may have missed it, but has a lack of FIA observers been identified as a problem? It's my understanding there is someone with each team watching what they do and during red flags it may be common for discussions between them and the teams as they swap out parts (damage repair). Not that it would be impossible to slip something through without them seeing, but that is always a risk.

Originally Posted by chillibowl

theoretically then that means they can also monitor in real time who changes tires and then drop them to the back of the pack when they eventually release the cars from their garages in a new order for the new formation lap...essentially wiping out the free tire change while also satisfying the need for those to change tires for safety reasons and the need to reorder the pack behind a SC.

I like idea of situation that might push a car to the back of the pack. But see comment below regarding shuffling cars around during a red flag.

Originally Posted by chillibowl

could allow for more fuel if thats required because they can do that in the garage as well. if teams need to do more work, for other safety reasons,, let them and then drop them back even further down the new release order.

added benefit in cases of rain delays that the cars dont just sit out in the open getting drenched in water under those goofy umbrella tents etc.

would that work?

I am very much NOT the expert on the red flag procedure. But in red flag situations, don't they stage the cars in pitlane in race order. Which means there is likely no correlation to proximity to team garages. That movement to garage is only if a car is retired (I know sometimes they shuffle cars to adjust race order)? Of course, I could be wrong and that they do sometimes take trips to the garage and back to pit lane during red flags.

But if you allow that to happen it requires shuffling of cars around. Do you...

1. A red flag does not result in cars in pit lane, but instead ALL cars go to the garage (to avoid the mess mentioned below) and then there is a cut off time as red flag period is ending to move cars out of garage into pitlane in race order.

2. Stage in pit lane in race order (as normal) but then shuffle cars to/from garage as needed. If cars need to adjust race position (move to back) due to penalties, depending upon pit lane length/space, this may trigger scooting cars forward in the lane to make room. Of which may aggravate teams working on cars in pitlane if they have to move during the red flag. In this scenario you also would still need some type of cut off period to say teams need to be lined up in the pit lane in the correct order. Stragglers still in the garage would have to start behind everyone else (probably can't leave pitlane until all others have left)

ALL of this seem like a lot of work, just to avoid counting some laps run under yellow after a red flag as race laps. Which is why I say mostly leave it as it is. But if a way could be found to easily force "repaired" cars back down the order (this includes tire replacement) then I would be all for that.

Richard

[chillibowl]

They don’t go racing out of pit lane though…red flag happens and everyone returns to their garage. When the race is about to be re started, you just release each car from their garage according to the order you want them to re form the grid in for the formation lap and race restart. And that order would be based on their previous position unless they change tires or whatever in which case they would drop to the back of the order…and so on down the order.

Apologies as I don’t think I’m explaining it very well…which is never a good sign!

And I’m sure there is a very good reason you can’t go back to your garage or if you do it means your race is over…I assumed it had to do with not knowing what a team is up too in their garage hence the mention of the observers and the need for monitoring.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

They don’t go racing out of pit lane though…red flag happens and everyone returns to their garage. When the race is about to be re started, you just release each car from their garage according to the order you want them to re form the grid in for the formation lap and race restart. And that order would be based on their previous position unless they change tires or whatever in which case they would drop to the back of the order…and so on down the order.

Apologies as I don’t think I’m explaining it very well…which is never a good sign!

And I’m sure there is a very good reason you can’t go back to your garage or if you do it means your race is over…I assumed it had to do with not knowing what a team is up too in their garage hence the mention of the observers and the need for monitoring.

Interesting idea of pulling cars out of the garage in race order.

As to this topic... it is covered in section 57 of the sporting regulations. It is about "suspending" the race. So I can imagine the spirit of the entire thing is to just freeze everything (my choice of words) while the track is made safe for racing. That in an ideal interpretation of that concept, is that "nothing happens with the cars and then they are allowed back on track once the track is safe to race again". However reality is more complex than that.

It would be interesting to see how the rules have been written/evolved over the years. I speculate that there as been various erosion to that ideal (more things being allowed to happen in the pitlane) and sometimes the opposite (additional restrictions or limitations as to what can happen). Even today you just can't do whatever you want to do to the car. There is a prescribed list of things (including changing tires/wheels) that is allowed. But after reading the rules, you currently can't take them to the garage. There is an interesting procedure for cars that were in the garage when the race was suspended....

Originally Posted by From Sporting Regulations

Any cars in their garage at the time the sprint session or the race was suspended will be arranged at the back of the line of cars in the fast lane in the order they got there. Any such cars will be permitted to leave the pit lane when the sprint session or the race is resumed but must re-enter the pit lane when the safety car returns and may join the sprint session or the race once the last car has passed the pit exit after the re-start (also see Article 58.12).

I bolded the interesting part. Basically not only are you at the back, you must re-enter the pit and rejoin race after everyone else has restarted.

Additional speculation as to why they don't allow them into the garages, is that it may just move the entire thing further away from my supposed ideal of just freezing the cars. It just becomes this slipper slope of racing the cars "as they were moments before the race suspension" to eventually the worst case of "teams rebuilding cars fully in the garage" while the race is suspended.

If anything, I like the idea of LESS work happening to the cars vs. more. Any significant changes (including changing tires IMHO) should result in a penalty. There could be two classifications of changes allowed (currently there is one with no penalty). Some that would not result in a penalty and some that would. Those that would trigger a penalty would follow the quoted section above in which you would be required to re-enter pit after recon lap. This would allow for addressing safety concerns, but would also penalize those who in which a replaced component will likely enable increased performance (such as new tires even if the same compound). Only exception would be if during the race suspension they declare the race to be wet and allow everyone to change from dry to wet. Then no penalties for changing tires.

I think the current solution has issues, but frankly I can't imagine any option that wouldn't upset someone and create some issues. There will always be winners and losers when applying the rules on suspended races.

Richard

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

Safety shouldn't depend on drivers being unwilling to risk a penalty. Safety should be foll-proof.

It is fool proof in other series. Because drivers will literally be told to go home mid-event if they violate one of these rules: See Creventic and NLS. And I believe Le Mans parked someone for an incident too.

[Alan52]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

It is fool proof in other series. Because drivers will literally be told to go home mid-event if they violate one of these rules: See Creventic and NLS. And I believe Le Mans parked someone for an incident too.

Le Mans will exclude drivers from the race if they show incompetence in practice even if that hadn’t resulted in an incident.

[Greem]

Originally Posted by Alan52

Le Mans will exclude drivers from the race if they show incompetence in practice even if that hadn’t resulted in an incident.

Yup. Happened last year:

https://www.autosport.com/le-mans/ne...hunt/10319269/

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by Greem

Yup. Happened last year:

https://www.autosport.com/le-mans/ne...hunt/10319269/

I remember that. No one could really argue with that decision, very incompetent piece of driving to put it mildly

[Tourer]

The FIA Stewards had the FIA Parc Ferme officials up before the beak after that utter farce in pit lane near the end of the Baku GP.

Reading the linked article (& the other article linked in the linked article) it appears that the setup of the Parc ferme area in pit lane whilst the race is live has become commonplace. That is so utterly stupid and so utterly dangerous. Any of the cars could have a problem and need to pit a damaged car - for sure it'd be rare as teams would rather get the car across the line and get recovered from on track - but it could happen. Today it was Ocon making a late stop, as the team was entitled to do (in fact required to do by the regs) but today's rubbish could have occurred in any GP with a late race pit entry.

Article says that FIA are sorting it out - which is very much needed but it also makes me wonder about the "leadership" that allows such risky, dare I say lazy behaviour to become the norm. Yes, there is more and more "stuff" in the Parc ferme area that needs to be hauled out, I get that makes it harder but seriously?

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by Tourer

The FIA Stewards had the FIA Parc Ferme officials up before the beak after that utter farce in pit lane near the end of the Baku GP.

Reading the linked article (& the other article linked in the linked article) it appears that the setup of the Parc ferme area in pit lane whilst the race is live has become commonplace. That is so utterly stupid and so utterly dangerous. Any of the cars could have a problem and need to pit a damaged car - for sure it'd be rare as teams would rather get the car across the line and get recovered from on track - but it could happen. Today it was Ocon making a late stop, as the team was entitled to do (in fact required to do by the regs) but today's rubbish could have occurred in any GP with a late race pit entry.

Article says that FIA are sorting it out - which is very much needed but it also makes me wonder about the "leadership" that allows such risky, dare I say lazy behaviour to become the norm. Yes, there is more and more "stuff" in the Parc ferme area that needs to be hauled out, I get that makes it harder but seriously?

Or make victory lane / Parc Ferme separate like Indy car - oh no wait a minuet F1 would never take a simple idea from
Somewhere else

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

Or make victory lane / Parc Ferme separate like Indy car - oh no wait a minuet F1 would never take a simple idea from
Somewhere else

F1 used to (kind of) do something a bit like, using the usual breezeway to pull the cars into - at some races anyway. That was before the interviews next to the cars and all that though.

Funnily enough, was having the same thought as you generally - plenty of other series do it effectively, this could be F1's opportunity to go all NASCAR!

[bathurst77]

What the hell happened at the end of Baku?
The rules state that they arent allowed to run to the pit wall to wave on the drivers taking the flag. They have to stay behind the line until all the cars are finished and the race "complete", yet with one lap to go there were FAI and others all over the pit lane running to the wall.

Ocon nearly cleaned a few up!

This after similar track incursions in Melbourne a few weeks ago,

[billy bleach]

All the people who were over the pit lane line should have their accreditation revoked …..yea right….

[broadrun96]

Yeah, I find it oddly funny the media whinging when it appeared most of the Ocon bollard applicants were media looking for the best shots. I'm guessing many are freelance and depend on selling the best stuff so I get it but they need to be to account as well as the FIA and track. Can't tell me that's not accepted practice and the fact no one has noticed before doesn't mean it hasn't been close because no one was following a car broken and retiring on the last lap to use some obscure retire and get free xxx next round driving through the mass.