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8 Aug 2022, 21:34 (Ref:4122265) | #201 | |||
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I dont think many BTCC drivers would see WTCR as a step up - certainly not at the current time for reasons hilighted in this thread. |
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9 Aug 2022, 05:53 (Ref:4122276) | #202 | |||
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It depends on what you mean by 'good enough'. If you took the current championship - everyone from Michelisz down would probably be in a similar (or worse) position in the BTCC. Does that mean that they are not good enough. The simple fact is that most drivers in any championship turn out to not be regular winners. BTCC, WTCC, WTCR, STCC or any other series you could list. A question - of the drivers who competed in the last three seasons (42) - how many would be challenging for the title in BTCC? |
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9 Aug 2022, 09:56 (Ref:4122294) | #203 | ||||||
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Super Touring died at the start of the noughties because it just became unaffordable - the common story of all the great formula's of the 80s and 90s. But S2000 pretty much died out when they allowed the Seat diesel torque killer's, TC1 died because they brought the ruleset forward a year to the benefit of Citroen and to the detriment of Honda & Co. Now, TCR is dying because they let yet another car that didn't yet meet regulations into the series (Lynk & Co) and have completely ballsed up the BOP and success ballast, not to mention tyres. We see this to an extent in SRO and WEC which does my head in, but somehow it still manages to work over there whilst it's a complete mess in WTCR. On top of all this, it's cheaper to go racing in GT World Challenge than it is to race top level tin tops. A Peugeot should never be more expensive than a Ferrari. Quote:
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9 Aug 2022, 11:58 (Ref:4122308) | #204 | ||
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9 Aug 2022, 12:31 (Ref:4122313) | #205 | |||
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The cars were about half the price of WTCC TC1 cars though, capped at 130,000 EUR (this is 139,000 EUR per car for 2022). So for a WTCR 2-car entry, you are looking at 428,000 EUR for machinery and entry fees. For a BTCC 2-car entry you are looking at about 50,000 GBP for entry fees and 800,000 GBP for machinery. The running costs will be broadly similar for both sets of regulations; the only real additional cost for WTCR is travel. |
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9 Aug 2022, 14:50 (Ref:4122339) | #206 | |
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The WTCR had a nice concept going, particularly in 2018. It needed to be after the failure of TC1, even if we still had some great racing going on.
They needed to keep it sustainable though and attract top names, maybe even get a few from the BTCC and other series to make regular or occasional appearances. I think the concept of the series is good and they travel to some good locations, but they need to try and attract more to the series, so we can see how good it can be |
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11 Aug 2022, 18:55 (Ref:4122568) | #207 | ||
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heck they could even air reruns of 2003 to 2007 WTCC |
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11 Aug 2022, 19:18 (Ref:4122570) | #208 | ||
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Absolutely. And my memory is so crap it would be "new" to me and I'd have no idea who wins 'til they cross the line.
Getting old sometimes has advantages |
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11 Aug 2022, 19:19 (Ref:4122571) | #209 | ||
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GT racing died about 2006 when they introduced GT3 rules, Touring cars around 2008 when S2000 started to die down (thank you SEAT TDI) |
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11 Aug 2022, 19:22 (Ref:4122572) | #210 | ||
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also those cars themselves are so spectacular, flying sparks, big exaust flames, you see the drivers having to actually "fight" the car , force them into coners , do sometimes mistakes it's all fun by itself , plus the different shapes of each team instead of all looking near the same is great Last edited by porsche962fan; 11 Aug 2022 at 19:42. |
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11 Aug 2022, 20:19 (Ref:4122577) | #211 | ||
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12 Aug 2022, 08:53 (Ref:4122609) | #212 | |
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I just hope the series can survive for a bit longer, but it needs better managing. It needs to keep attracting big names. Have drivers from other tin top series come in now and again. It's got a good calendar, but needs more to be done
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12 Aug 2022, 09:19 (Ref:4122612) | #213 | ||
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I think you are under egging the TC1 car costs. The worst TC1 car (granta) was 500K euro just for one bare chassis, before adding engine, suspension etc. An engine lease for a particular brand was in the region of 250K a year. It was widely known that a competition ready TC1 car was over a million euros |
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12 Aug 2022, 09:38 (Ref:4122615) | #214 | |||
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The main point to remember is that the question was 'Surely WTCR is more expensive to compete in than BTCC?' I think the answer is - No. From a machinery and entry fee perspective, WTCR is cheaper than BTCC. |
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12 Aug 2022, 10:11 (Ref:4122617) | #215 | ||
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World (and indeed European) Touring Car Championships seemed to work well back in the day when they were run to universally popular regulations such as Group A. Meaning that quite often competitors from the National championship would boost the numbers when a round was held in their (or a nearby) country. Unfortunately (certainly here in the UK) TCR hasn't taken off to such a degree and the more popular BTCC championship cars would not be eligible.
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12 Aug 2022, 10:39 (Ref:4122618) | #216 | |||
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In the future - based on current trends - if/when eTCR becomes viable for 20min races on circuits up to 2.5mile in length, then we might see BTCC and WTCR merge again regulation-wise. |
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12 Aug 2022, 15:12 (Ref:4122629) | #217 | ||
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12 Aug 2022, 15:47 (Ref:4122630) | #218 | |||
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He previously stated that there were two reasons that NGTC was selected for BTCC. 1- cost compared to S2000 machinery. 2- ability for customer teams and private entrants to have success over manufacturers. With the previous WTCC manufacturers all agreeing that customer cars match their preferred model of operating, then the reasons for moving to NGTC are gone. But anyway, that's a topic for the future of BTCC, not the 2022 season of WTCR. For now, the season is stagnated. The rest of the schedule needs to be confirmed soon before it is too late. |
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13 Aug 2022, 14:07 (Ref:4122671) | #219 | ||
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TCR rulles have been succesful. The problem with WTCR is the terrible promoter.
A good promoter would secure top entries and top venues. Instead, over half of the entries are amateurs, and half of the races have no spectators. |
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13 Aug 2022, 14:16 (Ref:4122673) | #220 | |
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Agree with the rest, but I actually think the driver quality is very high. It's just the quantity is very low! And you'd want the champions / front runners of regional TCR series to move up, but apart from Azcona and Urrutia, I'm not sure many have.
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13 Aug 2022, 16:48 (Ref:4122698) | #221 | ||
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14 Aug 2022, 13:42 (Ref:4122777) | #222 | ||
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The quality of the field definitely wasn't the problem. Norbi, Azcona, Monteiro, Girolami, Guerrieri, Huffy, Muller, Ehrlacher etc. are definitely amongst the best in the world. I don't know, perhaps we're doing the typical motorsport fan thing of getting disappointed when a ruleset becomes unsustainable. Most touring car and GT rulesets usually succumb to one manufacturer taking it too far.
Original GT1 - Mercedes Supertouring - Everyone Last GT1 - Maserati S2000 - SEAT TC1 - Citroen TCR - Lynk&Co/Hyundai? I think the thing that annoys me is that TCR was written to be cost-effective and somehow that was allowed to spiral, even with Lotti and WSC working in the background. I'd be interested to know what the avg was for a TCR International season vs WTCR. And, note how GT3 has now been running for near on 10 years as the top-tier of GT with BOP and it's still working for them (with your usual grumbles from those that felt hard done by). |
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14 Aug 2022, 15:01 (Ref:4122790) | #223 | |
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The thing with the GT3 model, that the TCR kinda uses/is based on, is the framework of the "unique homologated model" regulated centrally that on a GT ecosystem makes sense since cars are rare/special to begin with, so a stable model works for the makes, also we must take into account that the GT3 was never intended to be the top GT, it kinda became the de facto top after demise after demise of the designated "top series" one after another.
On a "lesser" (From the models represented on a series point of view) touring car ecosystem, there are many series and ruleset that are close/overlap to the TCR ones, the BTCC and TC2000*, for example, that contains models particular for the market where the series is running, that aren't present on the TCR, nor is feasible economically to make for the ruleset. In Europe, where TCR has its roots, or some Asian countries, that's not a big problem, but for other markets like the USA or South America doesn't have to much sense on a marketing perspective when the only Lynk&Co on a country are the ones winning the races that week. That and the centralised/client only nature of the TCR, while a desirable trait on some markets or series with less "touring car traditions" (where you could mount a series easily by buying the cars) or close to the manufacturer (as in Europe where you could make national and regional series.), a "world championship" with the manufacturer support doesn't bodes well with the original spirit of the series, (which was a high performance/low cost-ish formula, in fact, for the FIA, it was under the BTCC formula as a second tier for "national" touring cars, replacing the TNC3). The Lynk and Hyundai issues are a result of this. Also in countries/series with a tradition in making its own touring cars, (as the mentioned ones) it signifies leaving the technical know how and independence of the series outside its own hands. *Aside from the many many problems on the series, the TCR ruleset wasn't a good idea for the TC2000, or any argentine series, for that matter, because of the client nature of the ruleset in a country that makes a new touring series each week almost. |
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15 Aug 2022, 09:27 (Ref:4122839) | #224 | |
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Maybe WTCR needs to do thing it's way. TCR is fine, but it needs to make it so it doesn't run out of cars. GT3 was only intended for Europe, unlike TCR
I think having different types of tin top series around the world is fine. TCR is good in it's own right, as is the NGTC BTCC and TC2000. Not every series needs to be TCR There are plenty of good national and continental TCR series, some better than others. But WTCR needs to be the best or people won't come Hopefully the rest of the year will be problem free and we can have a great end to the season. But it needs a lot of changes. It's been through a lot. More quality teams and cars, plus plenty of top quality drivers, with the odd guest appearance. There are plenty of drivers from other series who can pop up from time to time Sadly I can't see WTCR surviving beyond next year at this rate, but luckily there will be plenty of other tin top series to watch |
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15 Aug 2022, 09:40 (Ref:4122841) | #225 | |
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I can't help but feel WTCR is on the motorway to its demise and little can be done to prevent it. I can't imagine the "problem-free" rest of the season and a "great" end of it that you're talking about as it's impossible for 12 cars to make a great show. Let alone the fact we still don't know if there are any races left and if so where and when. It's a problem after problem and I can't help but think it's beginning of the end (maybe not even beginning?)
Unless WTCR has a big rethink and massive turnaround (like DTM had for 2021 for example), I can't imagine it surviving. |
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