[WEC Race] 6 Hours of Fuji

[Deleted]

You know if SARD was there following this one and continuing 2015 evaluations, it was pretty pathetic advertisement for the P1 privateers. Three (in relation to H) slow cars despite all the ACO BoP fiddling miles behind with two of them sneezing mechanical gremlins and the third one burning to the ground.

[Starfish Primer]

Definitely LMP1 is beyond the privateers capabilities. LMP2 is better suited for them.

[Simmi]

Originally Posted by Starfish Primer

Definitely LMP1 is beyond the privateers capabilities. LMP2 is better suited for them.

To win is beyond their capabilities. Privateers can run a P1 but trying to balance them again factory dollars is not feasible. If there are 4-5 privateer cars next year it will be a decent sub-plot if nothing else. I hope the Rebellion team managed to get a few promo pics from the opening laps at Fuji.

LMP2 has been a 'meh' class all year but with a few more quality additions next year it will get its credibility back.

I'm actually most concerned about the GT-Pro class.

[jasonjessica09]

Originally Posted by Simmi

To win is beyond their capabilities. Privateers can run a P1 but trying to balance them again factory dollars is not feasible. If there are 4-5 privateer cars next year it will be a decent sub-plot if nothing else. I hope the Rebellion team managed to get a few promo pics from the opening laps at Fuji.

LMP2 has been a 'meh' class all year but with a few more quality additions next year it will get its credibility back.

I'm actually most concerned about the GT-Pro class.

LMP1 has more diversity than GT now. Kinda sad. Getting tired of Porsche/Ferrari/Aston Martin all the time. GTE needs fresh blood big time.

[carbon_titanium]

Originally Posted by cokata

i was not talking about fuji, i was talking about the season as whole. And toyota would have probably won even without the pen for #1 if lapierre didn't make so many mistakes during his stint.

As I said, the past is gone and I repeat, to me, to use the HD package for the R18 at fuji has been a complete fail. Race results agree with me.

Private lmp1 can't fight against official lmp1-h but are however really expensive, much more than lmp2 cars. To me the lmp1 private class should be made by lmp2 chassis, powered by fuel flow engines. A sort of lmp2+.
Take the ligier coupè, give a min. weight of 800kg, lmp1 michelin tyres and a proper lmp1 race engine like toyota or the AER, and then let's see if this car will be slower or not than the r-one and how much money will be required to race.

[Starfish Primer]

Originally Posted by Simmi

To win is beyond their capabilities. Privateers can run a P1 but trying to balance them again factory dollars is not feasible. If there are 4-5 privateer cars next year it will be a decent sub-plot if nothing else. I hope the Rebellion team managed to get a few promo pics from the opening laps at Fuji.

LMP2 has been a 'meh' class all year but with a few more quality additions next year it will get its credibility back.

I'm actually most concerned about the GT-Pro class.

I wasn´t expecting privateers to challenge the overall victory at WEC, but is depressing to watch them behind the P2s. I´m also worried on GT Pro class, new managers in Ferrari and Porsche, I don´t have a good feeling on this.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by carbon_titanium

Private lmp1 can't fight against official lmp1-h but are however really expensive, much more than lmp2 cars. To me the lmp1 private class should be made by lmp2 chassis, powered by fuel flow engines. A sort of lmp2+. Take the ligier coupè, give a min. weight of 800kg, lmp1 michelin tyres and a proper lmp1 race engine like toyota or the AER, and then let's see if this car will be slower or not than the r-one and how much money will be required to race.

That would be LMP2-PRO, not LMP1 private...

Originally Posted by jasonjessica09

LMP1 has more diversity than GT now. Kinda sad. Getting tired of Porsche/Ferrari/Aston Martin all the time. GTE needs fresh blood big time.

Ferrari vs Porsche alone would be fine for me for the next 30 years if actually believed the performances on track were genuine and not some fake forgery like now.

But yes the current breed is unsatisfying

[cokata]

Originally Posted by carbon_titanium

As I said, the past is gone and I repeat, to me, to use the HD package for the R18 at fuji has been a complete fail. Race results agree with me.

Private lmp1 can't fight against official lmp1-h but are however really expensive, much more than lmp2 cars. To me the lmp1 private class should be made by lmp2 chassis, powered by fuel flow engines. A sort of lmp2+.
Take the ligier coupè, give a min. weight of 800kg, lmp1 michelin tyres and a proper lmp1 race engine like toyota or the AER, and then let's see if this car will be slower or not than the r-one and how much money will be required to race.

I think that private lmp1 should be merged with p2, and p1 remains works teams only. The p2s IMHO need to be abit more powerful then they are now since they are barely quicker than a gt car in a straight line. The R-One so far excluding the sound and looks has been a big failure. A much heavier Lola from last year was more competitive

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Chiana

That would be LMP2-PRO, not LMP1 private...

Who cares what it's called, the car would be fast. And probably cheaper than p1L. I think the point was to compare performance vs cost in P1L vs a modified P2. I would be excited to see what the ligier could do with 100 less kg.

[cokata]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Ferrari vs Porsche alone would be fine for me for the next 30 years if actually believed the performances on track were genuine and not some fake forgery like now.

But yes the current breed is unsatisfying

I consider the current p1 rules the best we have seen in motorsport in quite some time, the complete opposite can be said about the GT rules. BoP-ing after every race is the most retarded idea ever. What incentive is there to develop a good car when you are just going to get leveled out with everyone else. At that rate we can continue to see the same outdated V8 vantage for years to come

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by joeb

Who cares what it's called, the car would be fast. And probably cheaper than p1L. I think the point was to compare performance vs cost in P1L vs a modified P2. I would be excited to see what the ligier could do with 100 less kg.

I just think sportscar classes should be called which they are, which here would essentially just be P2 on diet.

The weight of all the P2s could be reduced and restrictors boosted to the max without even aiming to become the "P1 subclass". Right now. That wouldn't really kill the cost cap, just make the class quicker as a whole.

And I too would like to see that. But as always, ACO has a target performance gaps for their classes and current P2's range is destined for "pretty fast" but no more

Originally Posted by cokata

I consider the current p1 rules the best we have seen in motorsport in quite some time, the complete opposite can be said about the GT rules. BoP-ing after every race is the most retarded idea ever. What incentive is there to develop a good car when you are just going to get leveled out with everyone else. At that rate we can continue to see the same outdated V8 vantage for years to come

Agree on LMP1(-H) ruleset being great. And GTE being crap.

PS that granny GT2 vantage debuted in the days of R10 vs 908

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by Chiana

restrictors boosted to the max without even aiming to become the "P1 subclass". Right now. That wouldn't really kill the cost cap, just make the class quicker as a whole.

Not really, boosting restrictors and putting the engines under more stress would decrease servicing intervals, and more development would be needed on the engines to allow them to meet the ACO-mandated servicing intervals, and more development = more cost.

[carbon_titanium]

Originally Posted by cokata

I think that private lmp1 should be merged with p2, and p1 remains works teams only. The p2s IMHO need to be abit more powerful then they are now since they are barely quicker than a gt car in a straight line. The R-One so far excluding the sound and looks has been a big failure. A much heavier Lola from last year was more competitive

Partially disagree, nissan lmp2 engine output is not less than 500hp, lmp1-H thermal engines power output is around 530hp. There is not a so big gap as was in 2010 at example when lmp2 power was around 550hp and lmp1 power was over 650hp. Don't forget also that lmp2 engines burn 75L in less than 50 minutes, requering 7 refuels during the race! rising the power means that the engine has to rev higher, that basicly means insane consumes! something like 75L burnt il less than 40 minutes!
To me ACO should make mandatory the usage of fuel flows also for lmp2 and GTE engines, with more Ox2 in a DI equipped engine, can be obtained the same 480-500hp range consuming less fuel than now.

About my opinion, to me an "lmp2+" as I explained should cost half the current lmp1-L maintenance budget and a lot of teams could be happy to step in again in lmp1.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

Not really, boosting restrictors and putting the engines under more stress would decrease servicing intervals, and more development would be needed on the engines to allow them to meet the ACO-mandated servicing intervals, and more development = more cost.

I wonder how the ELMS Porsche teams are managing restrictor free running...

The P2 engine regulations are about to be changed soon anyways, the engines could be made more durable and not production reliant. Also the price gap was risen for this year because of the increased cost of the new coupes, it could be risen (a bit) again, this is not charity.

Anyway at the very least you could decrease the weight and enlarge the fuel tanks. Would help with GT (and soon LMP3) traffic too

[Starfish Primer]

You cannot increase an engine´s power and durability without raising the costs. P2 success is based on cost capping. Same to plug a more powerful engine to a P2 without a massive review, in fact Lotus P1 is based on the Lotus P2.

[Juntos]

No, it's okay. It's nice to have someone to talk to who might understand.

Where was Porsche GTE factory team today?

[tux]

The Lotus LMP2 tub was designed to 2014 LMP1 tech regs so that it can be used in LMP1.

[cokata]

P2 engines should be on a fuel fomula as well (obviously with less allocation per lap than P1) but for cost and reliability reasons diesel and downsized turbo petrol engines should be forbidden. Something like the current TSO40 engine (no DI, turbo, or VVT+VVL) should be at a reasonable price.

[tux]

Originally Posted by Chiana

I just think sportscar classes should be called which they are, which here would essentially just be P2 on diet.

The weight of all the P2s could be reduced and restrictors boosted to the max without even aiming to become the "P1 subclass". Right now. That wouldn't really kill the cost cap, just make the class quicker as a whole.

And I too would like to see that. But as always, ACO has a target performance gaps for their classes and current P2's range is destined for "pretty fast" but no more



Agree on LMP1(-H) ruleset being great. And GTE being crap.

PS that granny GT2 vantage debuted in the days of R10 vs 908

The "Granny GT2" shares very little with the Vantages you see today.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by tux

The "Granny GT2" shares very little with the Vantages you see today.

You actually believe all the PR speech Aston Martin Racing gave for the 2012 "reworked GTE" (which retained all the previous BoP gifts of the "GT2" and even more)? It's just a mediocre tuning up of the cranky old chassis with ancient engine, ie same car that is kept competitive only by heavy performance balancing and "safety waivers"

Originally Posted by cokata

P2 engines should be on a fuel fomula as well (obviously with less allocation per lap than P1) but for cost and reliability reasons diesel and downsized turbo petrol engines should be forbidden. Something like the current TSO40 engine (no DI, turbo, or VVT+VVL) should be at a reasonable price.

I don't think P2 should touch the fuel side at all, could get messy with the little teams.

Speaking of new engine developments, you can catch glimpse of the future considerations here
http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...138269&page=18

[chernaudi]

Of course the race was hopeless for Audi because of the long straights and running an aero package that was suited for the twister sections of track, and like everyone else, it wasn't worth it for them to double stint tires, which would've saved them a significant amount of time. Ironically, Audi's HD package was probably in response to increasing/using tire life.

But then again, Porsche still ran a high downforce aero kit, and Toyota (like Peugeot in the past) adapted their LM package into being a psudo-high downforce kit.

But if Audi need/want any more incentive to move up a MJ class or two next season, this has to be it. Having better pit stops and having a better handling car will only get you so far when you're the slowest LMP1 down a nearly mile long straightaway.

I also wonder if Audi missed the set up, because they said that they couldn't make it worth the while to double stint even though they were theoretically capable of it.

This was their least competitive outing of this year, and I hope that they have something up their sleeves for the remaining Tilkedrome tracks, because otherwise, only Sao Paulo is the only remaining track that will suit the R18.

[Gingers4Justice]

6/10 race for me and I must confess, I took an hour's kip.

Toyota's win is healthy for the sport in the long-term but bar the first few laps, it was a pretty forgetful race at the front of the field.

LMP2 demonstrated how awesome it could be with just a few more cars...

[Simmi]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

6/10 race for me and I must confess, I took an hour's kip.

Toyota's win is healthy for the sport in the long-term but bar the first few laps, it was a pretty forgetful race at the front of the field.

LMP2 demonstrated how awesome it could be with just a few more cars...

When it became clear Audi had nothing there was definitely an 'ah' moment.

Davidson/Buemi could non-score and still lead the championship after the next round. Hopefully that means Toyota will let the team cars battle a bit. Although it's a lot tighter in the manufacturers championship.

I'd love to see Porsche take a win this year but I don't see how they can do that if the Toyotas don't break.

Completely agree about P2 with a few more cars.

[ederss7]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Of course the race was hopeless for Audi because of the long straights and running an aero package that was suited for the twister sections of track, and like everyone else, it wasn't worth it for them to double stint tires, which would've saved them a significant amount of time. Ironically, Audi's HD package was probably in response to increasing/using tire life.

But then again, Porsche still ran a high downforce aero kit, and Toyota (like Peugeot in the past) adapted their LM package into being a psudo-high downforce kit.

But if Audi need/want any more incentive to move up a MJ class or two next season, this has to be it. Having better pit stops and having a better handling car will only get you so far when you're the slowest LMP1 down a nearly mile long straightaway.

I also wonder if Audi missed the set up, because they said that they couldn't make it worth the while to double stint even though they were theoretically capable of it.

This was their least competitive outing of this year, and I hope that they have something up their sleeves for the remaining Tilkedrome tracks, because otherwise, only Sao Paulo is the only remaining track that will suit the R18.

Interlagos has a long uphill section, I guess they will struggle there as well.

[carbon_titanium]

TMG comes from F1 and I'm sure that if will be necessary, #7 will be sacrified to let #8 score more points. Again, if buemi/davidson will win driver cup but audi will win manufacturers cup, who will be the one allowed to use #1 next year? audi or toyota?