[iV8SC13R06,R07,R08.R09] ITM 400, Pukekohe NZ: 12-14 Apr

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Axeman444

agreed, whats stopping someone starting early and in clear air pulling a 10 sec gap, like what happened on the GC couple of years ago, and then any penalty is redundant

Further penalties can be applied by the stewards & it's been made clear to teams and drivers in their briefings that drive throughs, exclusions etc are all potentially in play if needed or deserved.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by Axeman444

agreed, whats stopping someone starting early and in clear air pulling a 10 sec gap, like what happened on the GC couple of years ago, and then any penalty is redundant

10 second penalty is a minumum, it can be reviewed a more sever penalty given

[JHamilton]

I still think that enforcing a penalty during the race is better, whether it is a 'stop and go' or 'stop and hold'. Once the penalty is served and they leave the pit lane, it is sorted. I would think the competitors would prefer that as well.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

I still think that enforcing a penalty during the race is better, whether it is a 'stop and go' or 'stop and hold'. Once the penalty is served and they leave the pit lane, it is sorted. I would think the competitors would prefer that as well.

That was the penalty imposed for a jump start for years under the V8 rules - was changed to the 10 sec time penalty a year or so ago as a result of competitors as a group feeling that a drive through was too severe. In other words, the 10 sec penalty is what competitors wanted.

Personally, I'm with you - but in this case, a frankly old fashioned way of doing things (time penalties for jump starts used to be the case years ago) is the rule that's in place, largely due to the competitor group wanting it that way.

[Axeman444]

Originally Posted by Tourer

Further penalties can be applied by the stewards & it's been made clear to teams and drivers in their briefings that drive throughs, exclusions etc are all potentially in play if needed or deserved.

so what happens if pole man goes a touch early, 2nd 3rd and 4th all bog down and don't get away cleanly, rest of the field cannot get past 2nd 3rd and 4th, pole man ends up with massive lead after 1st corner and is never headed, pulls away in clear air while everyone else is falling over each other, wins by say 11 seconds. is he penalised more than 10 sec because 2nd 3rd and 4th couldn't get their act together?

the penalty is open to confusion and manipulation unless it is set, just like everything else it seems these days in V8SC

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by Tourer

That was the penalty imposed for a jump start for years under the V8 rules - was changed to the 10 sec time penalty a year or so ago as a result of competitors as a group feeling that a drive through was too severe. In other words, the 10 sec penalty is what competitors wanted.

Personally, I'm with you - but in this case, a frankly old fashioned way of doing things (time penalties for jump starts used to be the case years ago) is the rule that's in place, largely due to the competitor group wanting it that way.

and the rule has worked quite well up until this stage due to the pit stops.

maybe they need the driver to go to slow on the non racing side of a straight until they are at rear of the field or behind "X" amount of cars

the drive through penalty is harsh. i'm glad they have moved away from it. But the non pit stop races has thrown up a curve

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by Tourer

That was the penalty imposed for a jump start for years under the V8 rules - was changed to the 10 sec time penalty a year or so ago as a result of competitors as a group feeling that a drive through was too severe. In other words, the 10 sec penalty is what competitors wanted.

Personally, I'm with you - but in this case, a frankly old fashioned way of doing things (time penalties for jump starts used to be the case years ago) is the rule that's in place, largely due to the competitor group wanting it that way.

That's odd to me. If I were penalized, I would want to serve immediately as it would not eliminate a win if say a safety car were to occur. If I were stuck behind a driver that was serving a penalty after the race or, even worse, get caught up in a wreck I'd be seriously ****ed. That being said, standing starts are a rarity here so maybe that's why it doesn't make sense to me.

[RedZedMikey]

I think the main issue is that introducing a "standard penalty" creates problems when there is no longer a "standard" race format. Penalties need to be set so that there is approximately the same effect regardless of race format. If the 10 second stop/go added to a pitstop was adopted as a result of a push by the drivers, so be it. That means that some method of applying a 10 second penalty needs to applied to sprint races with no pit stops. How?

Current option: Add 10 seconds to race time.

Other possibility #1: Driver is instructed during the race that he MUST lap once at his (slowest? fastest? average?) lap time plus 10 seconds. That needs to be managed so that his delay does not affect other racers by blocking while going slow, so limit it to a defined section of straight. Can drivers be trusted to manage that?

Other possibility #2: Driver is instructed that he MUST drop back to behind driver x. Once again that needs to be managed safely, especially if applied soon after the start.

Other possibility #3: Driver is instructed that he MUST drop back to rear of field. Probably less damage in terms of time lost than a drive through, but the penalty MUST be decided on and given quickly.

Other possibility #4: Apply the current 10 seconds added policy - but add a factor of 10? For example, if the offending driver is judged to have broken by less than 1 second = 10 second penalty; broken by 1-1.99 seconds = 20 second penalty, so that for all those posing the "what if he breaks by 10 seconds" question, the penalty is 100 seconds. That same rule could be applied to pitstop races as well.

Not sure that any of those is the right answer, but then again none of the drivers complaining appear to have put forward solutions either.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by RedZedMikey

I think the main issue is that introducing a "standard penalty" creates problems when there is no longer a "standard" race format. Penalties need to be set so that there is approximately the same effect regardless of race format. If the 10 second stop/go added to a pitstop was adopted as a result of a push by the drivers, so be it. That means that some method of applying a 10 second penalty needs to applied to sprint races with no pit stops. How?

Current option: Add 10 seconds to race time.

Other possibility #1: Driver is instructed during the race that he MUST lap once at his (slowest? fastest? average?) lap time plus 10 seconds. That needs to be managed so that his delay does not affect other racers by blocking while going slow, so limit it to a defined section of straight. Can drivers be trusted to manage that?

Other possibility #2: Driver is instructed that he MUST drop back to behind driver x. Once again that needs to be managed safely, especially if applied soon after the start.

Other possibility #3: Driver is instructed that he MUST drop back to rear of field. Probably less damage in terms of time lost than a drive through, but the penalty MUST be decided on and given quickly.

Other possibility #4: Apply the current 10 seconds added policy - but add a factor of 10? For example, if the offending driver is judged to have broken by less than 1 second = 10 second penalty; broken by 1-1.99 seconds = 20 second penalty, so that for all those posing the "what if he breaks by 10 seconds" question, the penalty is 100 seconds. That same rule could be applied to pitstop races as well.

Not sure that any of those is the right answer, but then again none of the drivers complaining appear to have put forward solutions either.

good summary. Now they just need to work out which one to apply.

I lean towards option 1 or 2.

[Crash Test]

If you're jumping the start by 2 seconds there are some serious issues that need to be resolved! Drive through and hold for eye test?

Back in the olden days (before drive throughs) you would cop a 60sec penalty added post-race. That was a touch over the top...

[Axeman444]

Originally Posted by RedZedMikey

Other possibility #4: Apply the current 10 seconds added policy - but add a factor of 10? For example, if the offending driver is judged to have broken by less than 1 second = 10 second penalty; broken by 1-1.99 seconds = 20 second penalty, so that for all those posing the "what if he breaks by 10 seconds" question, the penalty is 100 seconds. That same rule could be applied to pitstop races as well.

i like the theory, but maybe not the factor

[BackSeat Driver]

3 seconds before the lights-go-out, he (the driver) lurches foward 300mm then stops . . . (holds his position because reversing would be stupid) . . . then starts propper when the lights go out.

This is a very common thing from races I have been associated with. Your "Possibility #4" would be not possible in this situation.

I can't see anyone jumping the start by more than 2 seconds unless they are on the front row.

[Southern Man]

Why not just stick with the FIA requirements for false or jumped starts, the penalty for which is restricted to either of Article 16.3(a) or 16.3(b)

16.3 The stewards may impose any one of three penalties on any driver involved in an Incident:
a) A drive-through penalty. The driver must enter the pit lane and re-join the race without stopping;
b) A ten second time penalty. The driver must enter the pit lane, stop at his pit for at least ten seconds and then re-join the race.
c) a drop of ten grid positions at the driver's next Event.
However, should either of the penalties under a) and b) above be imposed during the last five laps, or after the end of a race, Article 16.4b) below will not apply and 25 seconds will be added to the elapsed race time of the driver concerned.

It does appear to work ok in Formula One