[ELMS] ELMS Discussion

[Akrapovic]

They'll end up with the MLC GT3 cars at GT4 speeds.

Just make Hypercar target 3:20. Problem solved.

[NaBUru38]

There are 41 entries for the 4 Hours of Barcelona: 18 in LMP2, 15 in LMP3, and8 in GTE.



https://sportscar365.com/lemans/elms...-4h-barcelona/

[Deleted]

On the 20th day, sun will set at 9.20PM while race shall finish at 10.30, so there will be 70 minutes of post-sunset running. From what I understand from the 24h Series there are no awful night-for-day floodlight posts like at Bahrain or wherever, just some dimmer here and there as it should be

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

There are 41 entries for the 4 Hours of Barcelona: 18 in LMP2, 15 in LMP3, and8 in GTE.



https://sportscar365.com/lemans/elms...-4h-barcelona/

That’s good to see. Shows how much more cost effective running a LMP2 car against an LMP1 IMHO

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by S griffin

That’s good to see. Shows how much more cost effective running a LMP2 car against an LMP1 IMHO

That doesn't even make sense considering you can't run P1 anywhere. Who knows what the nonhybrid market place could be if they
A) Were allowed into every regional series
B) Had seemingly infinite homologation status

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Chiana

That doesn't even make sense considering you can't run P1 anywhere. Who knows what the nonhybrid market place could be if they
A) Were allowed into every regional series
B) Had seemingly infinite homologation status

At the cost of p2 entries. Everyone would want to go for the win in their 'local' series and buy lmp1s and no one would be running a p2 because it'd be just like it is now with their lmp2's... lower level teams racing eachother instead of Toyotain the WEC. Why go there when I can run my lmp1 and get 'cheap' wins in ELMS or AsLMS? Then when they get their auto-entry to LM with their lmp1, they're still blown away by Toyota.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Chiana

That doesn't even make sense considering you can't run P1 anywhere. Who knows what the nonhybrid market place could be if they
A) Were allowed into every regional series
B) Had seemingly infinite homologation status

Who's going to buy them? I don't think the LMP1 privateers are anywhere near the operating costs of an LMP2, never mind the entry price. Just because they could doesn't mean they would. Tell a guy buying his ride in an LMP2 that you can go faster but it's 3 times the price and you've eliminated a large portion of your market. Otherwise they could run WEC events.

[Akrapovic]

The last ELMS LMP1 class had 2 full-time cars in it. Since going LMP2 only, it's hard to argue the series isn't fitter and healthier.

LMP1 downfall came with the push for hybrids. We had a healthy grid of LMP1s. The numbers dropped dramatically from there as hybrids were pushed aggressively and LMP1 privateers were neglected. If they had taken care of the LMP1 privateers then they'd still be here. It was made uneconomical to run in because the rules didn't keep up.

[carbsmith]

LMP1 costs are as high as they are in part because it isn't feasible to sell customer cars in any number for one championship with an entry cap. Having their regulation changes not line up with LMP2 anymore has not helped either although ORECA has still managed to use one base car for 3 different sets of regulations spanning 7 years and counting, the Adess ran in both classes, and the Dallaras aren't that different.

But that's by design, LMP1 is now intended as a constructors championship like F1 for some god forsaken reason.

[Mike E]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

LMP1 costs are as high as they are in part because it isn't feasible to sell customer cars in any number for one championship with an entry cap. Having their regulation changes not line up with LMP2 anymore has not helped either although ORECA has still managed to use one base car for 3 different sets of regulations spanning 7 years and counting, the Adess ran in both classes, and the Dallaras aren't that different.

But that's by design, LMP1 is now intended as a constructors championship like F1 for some god forsaken reason.

Which is why DPi works...

[truebeliever]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Why would it have any impact on this series whatsoever

Because the ACO WILL slow down the LMP2 cars, as they in essence are currently quicker than the proposed Hyper benchmark lap of Le Mans of 30.00.

One assumes, that will pass over to the ELMS, if not, why would an LMP2 entrant want to continue in the WEC and be slower?

Then having just given LMP3 more horsepower, reducing the LMP2 means the P3's will be much closer at much less cost.

So in one foul swoop, the ACO in their infinite wisdom get to screw up to Series and 3 classes that are doing well! For what? OEM money clearly.

[Deleted]

This article is just sad to read when you realize it was only 10 years ago we had goodness like this now it's just spec and bop and proam

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2019/0...na-1000km.html

- It was the wild west in LMP2 back then, with eight different chassis suppliers represented (Lola, Radical, Pescarolo, Courage, Lucchini, Zytek, WR and Ginetta), five engine brands (Mazda, AER, Judd, Zytek and Nicholson McLaren) and three tyre brands (Dunlop, Michelin and Avon). Some were open-top, some were closed.

- This left a top class with Aston Martin Racing’s pair of DBR 1-2s and a slew of privateer efforts to fight for the win. There were two diesel Audi R10s though, Kolles campaigned two ex-Joest cars that year in what was its first year as a sportscar team.

- “[GT2] We went as fast we could and there wasn’t a BoP structure like there is now. It brought the best out of us. Back then they’d look at engine restriction. It was open doors, you’d do what you wanted and they’d restrict the engine and add weight."

[Deleted]

Another support series alongside ELMS and MLMC
https://sportscar365.com/other-serie...ched-for-2020/

Well if nothing else, ELMS has really improved in packing up the event schedules in the last 5 years

[Juntos]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Another support series alongside ELMS and MLMC
https://sportscar365.com/other-serie...ched-for-2020/

Like we didn't have anything more interesting to watch. The market is saturated and they keep launching uninteresting racing series.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Juntos

Like we didn't have anything more interesting to watch. The market is saturated and they keep launching uninteresting racing series.

I don't think it's intended for anyone to actually watch, but to make money for Onroak

Anyway... The ACO did silently kill off their ASLMS Sepang Sprint Cup thingie after a single season, so these series can be canned if wanted

[Akrapovic]

It's a gentleman racers event. It's like Creventic - it isn't meant for us. We can watch it and enjoy it, but the customers are the drivers, not the fans.

The gentleman driver market is currently not saturated. Blancpain Endurance grids are over-subscribed, despite the existence of the Club events too. GT4 is doing well. VLN, Creventic etc. There is still room for more, because people are still paying for it.

[Akrapovic]

4H of Barcelona green. I completely forgot we don't have a good live timing system anymore.

[tux]

Originally Posted by Chiana

This article is just sad to read when you realize it was only 10 years ago we had goodness like this now it's just spec and bop and proam

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2019/0...na-1000km.html

- It was the wild west in LMP2 back then, with eight different chassis suppliers represented (Lola, Radical, Pescarolo, Courage, Lucchini, Zytek, WR and Ginetta), five engine brands (Mazda, AER, Judd, Zytek and Nicholson McLaren) and three tyre brands (Dunlop, Michelin and Avon). Some were open-top, some were closed.

- This left a top class with Aston Martin Racing’s pair of DBR 1-2s and a slew of privateer efforts to fight for the win. There were two diesel Audi R10s though, Kolles campaigned two ex-Joest cars that year in what was its first year as a sportscar team.

- “[GT2] We went as fast we could and there wasn’t a BoP structure like there is now. It brought the best out of us. Back then they’d look at engine restriction. It was open doors, you’d do what you wanted and they’d restrict the engine and add weight."

100% maybe there werent as many competitive cars but i was much more engaged and enjoyed it much more. Today? I watched the first 10 minutes and turned off, it just doesnt interest me anymore. To be honest, ive said it a few times in the last couple of years, my interest in motorsport is waining. Please dont call me a loser or boring for complaining, i just felt i should share my feelings. Sorry

[Deleted]

Yes... the circuit looked absolutely fantastic in the dark as did the cars but the field and competition itself... meh it was alright I guess... but what really stroke me was when at one point Goodwin said sth like "how could one be entertained by spec class racing" which was meant to be ironic, you know to prove how LMP2 is supposedly amazing now with 'close competition'. But it was only couple of years ago when he was sarcastically moaning to the microphone at Paul Ricard when spec Formula 3 racers were on the support bill for this very series, which at that point still had non-spec, non-bop and non-proam side to it. How times change...

Anyway much like with ASLMS I was bored again so here you go

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Chiana

“[GT2] We went as fast we could and there wasn’t a BoP structure like there is now. It brought the best out of us. Back then they’d look at engine restriction. It was open doors, you’d do what you wanted and they’d restrict the engine and add weight."[/I]

You leave out this, though:

[Differences in performance weren’t] such a big factor back then. They didn’t police it so stringently. They had to when the series started to die a few years later because they needed to keep customers coming back with a chance of competing.”

Given the choice between a BoP and a free for all class, privateers will almost always go the BoP route.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

You leave out this, though:

[Differences in performance weren’t] such a big factor back then. They didn’t police it so stringently. They had to when the series started to die a few years later because they needed to keep customers coming back with a chance of competing.”

Given the choice between a BoP and a free for all class, privateers will almost always go the BoP route.

Yes, because it was so obvious...?

Organizers giving up to demands is nothing new, and if given the choice most competitors will obviously choose BoP over free-for-all, because it guarantees success, instead of having to actually work (or switch chassis) if your package isn't the greatest. But that's the problem which I've been touting for years now - and it goes beyond BoP to things such as pro-am and so on - that the customers now expect these things as the norm. It's a nanny state.

By the way, ELMS GTE having almost always been just a two horse Porsche vs Ferrari platter, the over reliance on that (and success ballast now on top) is almost funny. Especially while in the upper spec classes the same two or three horse race lets Oreca to be the conqueror year after year

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Chiana

but what really stroke me was when at one point Goodwin said sth like "how could one be entertained by spec class racing" which was meant to be ironic, you know to prove how LMP2 is supposedly amazing now with 'close competition'.

I noticed that comment too, and my first thought was the lady doth protest too much. The chassis issues are killing my interest in this series. The teams and driver quality is good, but it's become a spec series and that isn't fun.

Although, to beat the dead horse yet again, trying to follow an endurance race with terrible live timing is not possible. Not having the ability to see gaps and sectors accurately and on-the-fly made this unwatchable. I tuned out pretty early on after the live timing we're provided falls into the 'Everyone is now 1 lap down' phase and you can't tell who is where any more. It's pathetic and the ACO should be ashamed at taking away a good tool and providing nothing in its place.

[Deleted]

Your first line of thought was Shakespearean? I'm envious

I guess next year you could have some more variety in LMP3 if the "new gen" Ginetta comes over (doubt ADESS really makes any appearance) but meh overall... it's the same few cars year after year in every class and there's no change of pace when it's tech frozen... essentially the grid and order of things is exactly the same as it was in Silverstone 2017. And no wonder United is starting to ditch Onroak fleet to Oreca...

Anyway as I said before I liked the night aspect of Barcelona, made it feel somewhat less of a clone race to others.

[Deleted]

[Mike E]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Another support series alongside ELMS and MLMC
https://sportscar365.com/other-serie...ched-for-2020/

Well if nothing else, ELMS has really improved in packing up the event schedules in the last 5 years

Does anyone know the relative performance levels of these two cars? It's an interesting idea to combine two spec series into a multi-class race. It will add the unpredictable varibale to the race that multi-class usually brings.