Special Saloon/Super Saloon Register

[driftwood]

Clive
Cols dad raced Imps in period in ireland and he has his fathers original car
so he is not a "barcleys banker"
what were you nat west?

[col rooney]

Its all hear say the imp engine is designed on a covenrty climax and thats as close as the get , Well having had a few fire pump engines over the years plus haven looked close at them none of the parts would fit to an imp or 930 engine it all looks very simular but the bits are either to small by a few mm or to long by a few mm ,and having looked hard at the bigger coventry climax engine that is in say a lotus they are way bigger they do look very much like the imp engine ,i know that the comp dept did do a few 1190 and 1220 long stroke engines these were sand cast ,the 850 engine were down stroked to 58.4 and the bore was 68mm ,i have a sand cast front cover on my original mk1 engine and few other engine bits that are sand cast but its still an imp engine ,Any way clive if you know which bits fit to the imp engine please let us imp lads know so we can you them

col

[Clive Brown]

Originally Posted by driftwood

Clive
Cols dad raced Imps in period in ireland

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know all that, I even saw him race. Please explain, though, how this indemnifies Col from being wrongly advised ,mistaken, or just plain wrong!

The trick lies in knowing which bits fit what. Bear in mind that many Coventry Climax castings were sub-contracted to Auto and Marine (A&M) in Coventry; they also did a number of the castings for the Imp motor.

At one point, I came very close to securing the patterns for the so-called 'deep head', but unfortunately, after all those years I was just a matter of a few months too late....

Just look on the whole thing as a contiguous parts catalogue from which bits could be mixed and matched.

[Clive Brown]

A&M should be read as 'Aero and Motor', not 'Auto and Marine'.... d*ckhead!

If the deep head was not of Coventry Climax origin, just where did it come from? It was George himself who told be that this was an FWH, yet this is not shown on the Coventry Climax history. However, when I later tried to secure the patterns so that I could produce a proper deep head that Ian Carter had not already got at and ruined, using the designation FWH opened all the right doors. Moreover, the FW series motors were not a fire pump engine! Clue: what does 'FP' stand for?

@ col rooney, thanks for the advice about bore and stroke combinations of the Imp motor! It's 4πr²h, isn't it?

[driftwood]

4πr²h, ques que c`est?

[Clive Brown]

It's how you calculate the capacity of a four-piston engine from the bore and stroke. h is the stroke, and r is half the bore size. π is 3.142, or what Northerners eat with chips, mushy peas, and gravy.

[allenbrown]

For a 4-cyl engine, bore² x π x stroke is all you need.

It's quite sad that I can still remember π is 3.1415926 nearly 35 years after I learnt it.

[Clive Brown]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

For a 4-cyl engine, bore² x π x stroke is all you need.

And if the motor has four cylinders, but eight opposed pistons?

[col rooney]

Well Clive having made a few calls to people who built and are still building imp race engines and would have more knowledge than you on imp engines it would seem your the only person who has been able to fit coventry climax bits into the imp engine ,so i will stand by my previous post that the bits are not inter changable until i see 1 of your engines with these bits

col

[Clive Brown]

Originally Posted by col rooney

Well Clive having made a few calls to people who built and are still building imp race engines and would have more knowledge than you on imp engines col

Col, the only ones that might possibly have had more knowledge of the critical period are all dead.... count 'em! Bevan, Carter, Chesman, Payne; not lost, but gone before. I guess if I keep demurring from your view, I'll probably be next up on the list .

[col rooney]

No i would think there is many a year left in you yet, there is still quiet a few good imp engine builders ,mr woods being 1 not far from you ,yes most of the old school engine lads have passed on but there are people out ther who know as much as what they did and thats why there is so many of them still racing and winning

col

[Clive Brown]

col, I thank you for your kind words!

John's late, and very much still lamented brother Ronnie, used to do the hand finishing on all my new heads after I'd had all the welding and basic machining done on the original castings.... The motor in Ronnie's G15 was an 1150 of classic 75x65 dimensions, but of clearly-identifiable Imp origins. Most of the motors which used what I believe to be FWH bits were also big, and had things such as five bearing cranks, five bearing cams, 5/16th stem valves, and all manner of funny skunk works bits.

Incidentally, I acquired in Greetham Engineering's bankruptcy sale a load of the big-end and cam bearings for five bearing applications. Andy Chesman himself told me that they were actually originally Coventry Climax parts.

When I moved house, I threw them away....

So two questions for all you Imp historians, then:

(i) If not the mysterious FWH, what was the Fraser deep head, with all its variations?

(ii) The Fraser D cam became the R23, or if you were Ray Payne, the RP3. But whatever became of the Fraser F cams? Some had the F profile on the inlet, some on the exhaust, and some on both- that was called the RFF. I've still got one somewhere. Still of nominal .360" lift, powerful, peaky, but used to destroy the valve gear- but that was with works valve springs, and not the better versions that a number of us tried later.

[Angus Theape]

other Carter engines, non Imp.

http://www.controlline.org.uk/phpBB2...pic.php?t=4892

[driftwood]

When I moved house, I threw them away....Clive yr a barcleys banker!
Angus the areo motor has nowt to do with Ian Carter or Imps!

[Angus Theape]

Originally Posted by driftwood

When I moved house, I threw them away....Clive yr a barcleys banker!
Angus the areo motor has nowt to do with Ian Carter or Imps!

Well they were made by the same man. Knew a fellow who was picking a Carter imp engine up in the 70s and asked if he was related to the CCS man. Reply was "that was me" and the conversation developed into a 3 hour conversation about model aircraft.

[driftwood]

Pie in the oven! that site looked usa hence my flippant remark
I know Chesman went off and fitted Imp motor to some power boats and raced them
Imp motors also found in some side cars I recall George Bevan pointing out a motor he was rebuilding to go into a side car

[col rooney]

I will find out if Ian Carter was involved in them model engines,there was plenty of sidecar outfits running imp engines at home in ireland my dad use to built 1 for pat mcgee who had quiet a bit of success

[morninggents]

Imp motors also found in some side cars I recall George Bevan pointing out a motor he was rebuilding to go into a side car[/QUOTE]

Wasn't it someone called Greenwood who was first to do that?

[driftwood]

not sure on who done it forst all before my time
i was at the BEMSEE 100th aniversary meeting at Brands and saw 1 sidecar kit with Imp motor in it

[Gerry Taylor]

THE man for me, when it came to Imp units was Geoff Farmer. A really excellent engineer and I should know, I have taken on a few in my time. I protested his engine once after he came past me on Stebbe Straight like a bat out of hell! It was found to be quite legal. Geoff runs Adelphi Engineering in Tibshelf, and can still build a quick unit.

[driftwood]

Geoff didnt run Imps for that many seasons
he had a big shunt i beleive at silverstone car rolled against pit wall and his hand was trapped and he had a couple of seasons out of racing
later he came back to race S2000 cars then Donington GT with the 2 litre Maguire Esprit in the mid 80`s
now has 3 f1 cars Lotus 49 ex Walker team car being the creme de la creme

[big andy]

Originally Posted by driftwood

Geoff didnt run Imps for that many seasons
he had a big shunt i beleive at silverstone car rolled against pit wall and his hand was trapped and he had a couple of seasons out of racing
l

the accident was at mallory with the car spliting in two and geoff being catapulted from the car and lucky to be alive months later we parked next to him at rufforth i was only 4 and can remember him showing me is hand with 3 fingers missing the imp he ran was a good 5sec a lap faster than all the regular troy tyres and auto 1000cc runners only roger mathews mini/ford mae could get close to him

[Gerry Taylor]

Originally Posted by driftwood

Geoff didnt run Imps for that many seasons
he had a big shunt i beleive at silverstone car rolled against pit wall and his hand was trapped and he had a couple of seasons out of racing
later he came back to race S2000 cars then Donington GT with the 2 litre Maguire Esprit in the mid 80`s
now has 3 f1 cars Lotus 49 ex Walker team car being the creme de la creme

Just to qualify Driftwood, Geoff had his accident at MALLORY PARK, we were coming out of the Devils Elbow and Geoff attempted to take on the outside. The Imp, as you know was very light at the front end, and simply took off under the Motor bridge, and came down on its drivers door. I was at the scene, and my wife came out of the pits to assist. It really was a dreadful day, and one I shall never forget.
Just wanted to put the record straight matey.

[ezwalk43]

Just picked up this thread and dropping back to the 1963 Mallory entry list I've loaded a couple of photos from the first race meeting I ever attended which could well have been the same event - don't think much of the handicapper on the day - whoever decided to start a Gogomobile some time after the Superspeed Anglias set off had a vivid imagination!

[Alan Brown]

Here are my observations culled mainly from MNs on the 1972 season.

Norman Abbott and John Emmins (Spiders Nightspot) – Escort – “shocking pink” (MN 29-6-72) – usually quoted as 2.1/2.2 FVA and entered as such, but in actual fact 1600 FVA [to take advantage of 10 in rims, correct for the 2-litre but oversized for the 1600 class that year (MN 15-2-73)] – Hewland box located at the rear which caused controversy and led to revised regulations for 1973
Andy Barton – Mini Cosworth SCA 997 (140 bhp at 11000 rpm MN 3-8-72)
Sedric Bell – Mini-Holbay Ford F3 997
Mike Berman and John Wales – Berpop Mk 2 Buick V8 3.5 (“the McLaren/TJ fuel injection V8 traces its history back to the Zerex Special”) – a few of the original components of the original Berpop (written off at Silverstone) were used with a Berman space frame front and box section rear, E-type gearbox, Jaguar rear end (MN 30-3-72) – blue and yellow
Charlie Bradley – Escort 1.6 twin cam – ex-Wylie’s/Birrell (which one?)
Dave Bray (Yarbspeed) – Escort 2.0 or 1.9 (mainly hill climbs and sprints but some races)
Derrick Brunt – Escort TC 1.7
Mike Chittenden – Anglia 1600 twin cam
Trevor Clapton – Anglia 1000
Dave Coleman – Escort 1.8 twin cam
Trevor Cook – Anglia 1000
Bill Cox – WRC Capri Chevy 6.2 or Chrysler V8 7.0
Brian Cox – Mini Clubman-Ford twin cam 1.3 (different car to Bob Fox)
Mike Crabtree (Willment) – Escort BDA 2.1
Graham Craker – Mini Cooper S-Ford twin cam 1648 (Gordon Allen)
Brian Cutting – Escort Martin V8 3.0
Tony Dickinson – Escort BDA 1.3
Bill Dryden – Firenza 2.5
Gill Fortescue-Thomas (Shell-entered, Boreham-backed and Don Moore-prepared) – Escort Hart BDA (alloy block) 2080 (260 bhp)
Bob Fox – Mini Clubman Ford 1.3 t/c (different car to Brian Cox)
Graham Goode – Anglia 1000
Joe Gregory – Escort 1.9/2.0 twin cam
Robin Gray – Escort Martin V8 3.0
Colin Hawker – Escort V6 3.0
Tony Hazlewood – DAF 55 Coupe Oldsmobile/Buick/Rover V8 4.2/4.3
Mick Hill – Boss Capri V8 5.0 – painted salmon pink with blue trimmings – then sponsored by Luton Motor Co and painted metallic blue and yellow – also driven by Teddy Savory – new engine (4.7 Gurney-Weslake from John Jordan’s GT40 MN 6-7-72) – to be replaced by a new car (MN 30-11-72) – 17 outright and 18 class victories (MN 25-1-73)
John Hipkiss – Mini-Ford Holbay MAE 1.0
Norman Hodgson (Crosby Moor Garage or Lakeland Motor Co) – Escort TC 1.8 Alan Smith BDA – yellow and blue – sold and replaced (borrowed from?) by Alan Palmer’s Escort and fitted with his own 1.6? Smith BDA (MN 12-10-72)
Colin James – Escort 3.0
Tom Jeffrey – Sheltune Escort twin cam 1.6
Martin Kent – Sunbeam Rapier Mk IV or V Chevy V8 4.7/5.0/5.3/6.0 or Chrysler 5.2
Graham Lloyd – Mini-Ford MAE 850
G Lynn – Cortina-Rover V8 3.5
Gerry Marshall – Firenza 2.3/2.5 - blue
Dave McCloy – Escort 2.0 t/c (FVA block?)
Chris Meek (Tate of Leeds) – Escort-Boss Mustang 5.7 (“Bosscort”) – built up by Chas Beattie – Can-Am McLaren front suspension, Chas Beattie-designed rear suspension with an E-type rear end, a Falcon Sprint gearbox and a Mathwall-prepared ex-Dennis Leech 5.7 engine (MN 20-7-72) – also raced at least once by Mick Hill –exchanged in the autumn with Doug Niven for his Escort (ex-Alan Mann/Frank Gardner) 1.8 BDA and then the Norman Abbott Escort FVA was acquired (October)
Dave Millington – Escort TC 1.8
Dave Millington – Firenza 2.3 ex-Jimmy Johnstone (late season)
J Morris – Cortina Mk 1 V6 3.0
John Myerscough – Escort 1.8 or 1.6 twin cam – “Elan-chassised” (MN 6-7-72)
Doug Niven (Celtic Homes) – Escort (ex-Frank Gardner/Alan Mann) BDA 2040 or 1.8 – exchanged with Chris Meek for the 5.7 Mathwall V8 Escort
John Pope – Viva GT 2.3 (or 2.5 or 2.6) – ex-Marshall (written off at Lydden in 1969 but built up) – also driven by Derrick Brunt
David Render (London N20) – Fiat 600D-Lotus 1588 (sprint) – (for sale, £850, MN 10-2-72)
John Robinson – Escort 1.3 BDA, 170 bhp at 9250 rpm, extensively lightened (12 cwt), with glassfibre bonnet and wings in one lift-off section and much gutting of the rear, blue and yellow, originally in 1970 1.3 Lotus twin cam and then 1300 BDA in 1971 (based on a 1500 Ford block with a 1300 steel crankshaft, Cosworth pistons, twin 45DCOEs), 5-speed Hewland gearbox, (MN 28-9-72)
Gerald Roch (Dublin) – bought the all-independent Escort built by Dave Brodie in 1970 but never raced – ZF gearbox and Racing Services FVC enlarged to 2.1 (MN 3-2-72)
Bill Shaw – Capri Chrysler 7.0
Bill Shepherd – Austin A40-Cosworth Ford 997
Eric Smith – Escort 2.0 BDA – shell ex-Doug Niven’s 1971 car
Roger Smith – Capri Janspeed Rover V8 3.5
Tony Sugden – Escort TC Abbott 2.0/2.1
Mike/Mick Tamplin – Escort V6 3.0
Gerry Taylor (sponsored by Swish Curtain Tracks) - (ex-Roger Williamson) – Anglia 1000
Tony (or Alan) Tobias (Wynns) – Janglia 3.8
Alan Palmer – Janglia 3.8
(Same car? Same car as Norman Hodgson in late 1970? All seem to be based in the North/North-East.)
Jim Thomson - Firenza (hill climbs)
Bob Torrie – Escort BDA 1.7
John Turner – Anglia-BRM twin cam 1000
Stuart Turner – Escort FVA 2.0 or Abbott BDA 2.0 – ex-Broadspeed
Terry Van Der Zee – Escort-Triumph 2.2
P Watkins – Escort 3.0
Tony Whibley – Viva GT 2.0
Nick Whiting (All Car Equipe) – Escort – debut at BH 18-6-72 – 1.7 or 1.6
Geoff Wood – Mini-Ford/Holbay 1.3
Vince Woodman (Dave Matthews) – Escort BDA 2.1
R Yates – Zodiac-Chevy 5.0 or 5.7
Unknown – picture in MN 11-5-72 of the ex-Doc Merfield Fraud Cortina at the Prescott hill climb


Adverts
• Racing Cortina with 3.8 E-type engine, £200 ono, Southend or Hockley or Littlehampton (MN 27-1-72)
• Morris Minor Ford V8 5.2, irs, fibreglass panels, £150, Flynn, Battersea,SW11 (MN 3-2-72 and 17-2-72)
• 1971 championship winning Escort 1760, aubergine and orange, £800 ono, Farnborough, Kent (MN 10-2-72)
• Escort twin cam rolling chassis, £700, Mike Campbell-Cole, Newbury (MN 10-2-72)
• “Very special saloon, full race Austin A40/Ford 1650”, haggle around £400, Northallerton (MN 24-2-72)
• K-reg 1969 HB Lotus Viva, ex-circuit car, 135 bhp, Ventora front suspension, £750, later offers over £650, Kettering (MN 15-6-72)
• “very special racing Escort” (lengthy description) built 1972, 1298 BDA (162 bhp), cost over £4000 to build, for sale to nearest offer to £3000, Ronnie McCutcheon, Wigtown (MN 15-6-72)
• V8 Imp, unique car, 3.5 alloy engine, built as hill climb/sprint car, Crosshills (York) £880 (MN 29-6-72)
• Morris-Jaguar racing saloon, Minor shell, multi-tube chassis, independent all round, 3.8, Wade supercharger, £430, 0204 (MN 10-8-72)
• Racing 3 litre Escort, fuel injection, £975, 0742 (MN 30-11-72)


Ireland

Des Donnelly – Viva GT 2.5 or 2.3 or 2.2 or 2.0
Mattie McNamara – Escort FVA 1.6 – white
Vincent Moy – Imp-Ford F3 1.0 – disqualified at Bishopscourt in June for the mid-engine location
Jackie Patterson (Paterson) – Viva GT 2.5 – ex-Bill Dryden
Alec Poole – Rover 3.5 (or was it 4.5?) – ex-Pierpoint
Tom Stafford – Anglia 1.6 twin cam
R Ward – Escort 2.0 twin cam – ex Wylie/Perdal