Historic Racers In Europe - Carnet Requirements?

[Tel 911S]

[QUOTE=eamonn ledwidge;4046092]

Originally Posted by Tel 911S

This link is fairly easy to understand .http://www.autoaddicts.co.uk/brexit-...MTJYaX45Cdq5XA
You do not need a Carnet if it is your own registered vehicle ,and any spares can be on a duplicate list .


This is all very well, but there is clearly no awareness or recognition amongst those who drafted these arrangements that some racing cars, specifically single seaters and sports racers, are not road registered and insured for road use.

How are we left??

That link does say that if the car is not registered , then it will need a Carnet .

[eamonn ledwidge]

[QUOTE=Tel 911S;4046098]

Originally Posted by eamonn ledwidge

That link does say that if the car is not registered , then it will need a Carnet .

I missed that, many thanks - just great news!.

[Simon Davey]

Thanks for all the comments on this. It's interesting to see that the quote comes from one of the Chambers of Commerce (London) that offer Carnets on a commercial basis. I think it is about the only indication that I have seen in print (including all the Government pages that I have perused) that a Carnet is not an appropriate solution if you are towing your own racer, whether it is road-registered or not.

One of the key points that I have taken from various Government advice pages is that if you are "temporarily exporting " your car (eg to race it in Europe), and will subsequently be re-importing it to the UK, in order to qualify for "Returned Goods Relief" on Tax and Duty one of the issues is that you ideally need to be able to show documentary evidence that the car previously has been in the UK. If the car is or has been road-registered in the UK I guess that the V5C effectively achieves this. If it is a non road-registered race car, suitable documentary evidence is a bit more tricky. I think there is no generally acknowledged "owner" or "keeper" or "origin/history" document for race cars in the UK; and I have bought and sold quite a few over the years, as have many others.

If you don't have suitable documentation for your "own" racer, and assuming a Carnet isn't the way to go because it is for commercial and/or professional "goods", then a Duplicate List could be a solution. I think a Duplicate List could provide verification that the car had in fact been temporarily exported from the UK, and that it is the same car that is being re-imported. A Duplicate List is in any case also cost-free, unlike a Carnet, so even if a Carnet is a workable solution I for one would much prefer to pass on it.

I think an issue about Duplicate lists is that they can work OK for leaving/returning through a UK port, but do not address any issues that you might encounter at the European port, or other Customs borders around Europe if you venture that far. These are dependant on the rules that apply to the country that you are entering/leaving. I think Carnets do address these potential problems (provided the country in question accepts Carnets).

There is certainly a lot of confusion for private individuals such as myself who want to take their own race car abroad to compete (at one or more events), and then return it to the UK.

The same probably applies to any sports/leisure equipment that can be moved by road/ferry/tunnel: motorbikes, pedal bikes, gliders, canoes, snowmobiles, boats, surfboards...and anyone moving this sort of equipment between the UK and Europe commercially now faces large extra bureaucracy, hassles, and costs relating to many of the points that have been raised in this thread...ie Carnets, Operator Licences, Trailer Registration etc etc.

Sigh.

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by Simon Davey

The same probably applies to any sports/leisure equipment that can be moved by road/ferry/tunnel: motorbikes, pedal bikes, gliders, canoes, snowmobiles, boats, surfboards...and anyone moving this sort of equipment between the UK and Europe commercially now faces large extra bureaucracy, hassles, and costs relating to many of the points that have been raised in this thread...ie Carnets, Operator Licences, Trailer Registration etc etc.

Sigh.

It only want's some jobsworth at the airport or docks to start digging deeper, I travel to and fro to Spain a fair bit throughout the year (at least I did) and carry several thousand pounds worth of video/audio recording and laptop gear. I have often thought about this and the answers from the government are a "bit ambiguous" just like most things at the moment, as how will they differentiate between business and pleasure ?

[MGDavid]

Simon - I reckon 'suitable documentation' would include an HTP issued and validated by MSUK. Still leaves a problem for the impecunious clubbie with a race car that was never homologated or is modified beyond hom spec or simply doesn't justify the expense of an HTP.

[delta]

Off for the first Delta trip of the year . I am collecting a Formula Ford from Belgium . I had Covid test at Cobham services yesterday and am now on the train under the sea somewhere . All easy so far and I am looking forward to driving through France and Belgium . Just wish I was going to Spa as well . I will keep you updated as the day goes on . ?

[John Elwin]

Originally Posted by delta

Off for the first Delta trip of the year . I am collecting a Formula Ford from Belgium . I had Covid test at Cobham services yesterday and am now on the train under the sea somewhere . All easy so far and I am looking forward to driving through France and Belgium . Just wish I was going to Spa as well . I will keep you updated as the day goes on . ?

Give me a toot as you go past!

It's currently bright & sunny here in Northern France. Can't speak for Belgium though...

You could also take that Alfa back for Richard!

[andy97]

Originally Posted by John Elwin

You could also take that Alfa back for Richard!

The plan develops!

[Lancsbreaker]

Originally Posted by andy97

The plan develops!

When I checked two days ago it was showing as Sold, not surprisingly


I'll have to revert to plan A

[andy97]

Damn, it was a cunning plan!

[Gerard C]

Proof in the pudding, it was a fair offer.

[midgetman]

Proof in the eating. "The proof of the pudding is in the eating"

Sent from my AC2003 using Tapatalk

[delta]

Well we have made it on to the train somehow . Fair bit of confusion with us and all the French and U K border controls but the old Delta magic worked . Happy days . ?

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by midgetman

Proof in the eating. "The proof of the pudding is in the eating"

"C'est au pied du mur qu'on voit le maçon" sounds weird, should be "at the top of the wall"!

Happy day Delta.

[Peter H]

Dear all, I have done some work on this and I have sent to Carol Spagg of HMRN version 5 of my report. She is publishing it. I am also in contact and liaising with MS U.K. In summary, no-one needs carnets. At all.

Outward from U.K. to EU to do a race, get C&E1246 form stamped by U.K. customs and drive straight through French Customs. Technically what is happening is that you are claiming Temporary Importation Relief ‘by conduct’ under the sports good exemption. Upon return, drop by U.K. customs to give them the stamped C&E 1246 form (returned goods relief form).

Freight carriers do the same except enter ‘temporary importation relief’ when applying for your GMR reference. There is a case for freight not to make a ‘by conduct’ declaration but instead make an oral declaration at the French point of entry with completed Annex 71-01 form.

EU people coming to the U.K. for a race, complete INF3 form to present to French customs (equivalent to the UK’s C&E1246 form), and make a ‘by conduct’ declaration when passing U.K. customs ie simply drive straight though with no stopping of forms.

Upon return to the EU, present the INF3 form to French customs.

For full details, see my paper with important background information and cross references to specific EU Regulations, required forms and HMRC Guidance Notes (which were updated on 10 March 2023 following pressure from us to specifically refer to the Sports Goods category of the Temporary Importation Procedures).

This is been tested last year by an HGPCA member with an unregistered single seater race car (ie, not a means of transportation). All worked. Also, I have spoken with U.K. BorderForce and Customs officials.

Read my report and feel free to ask questions.

[Peter H]

PS. Don’t need the C&E1246 form if your race car is V5’d with the DVLA.

[Peter Mallett]

Excellent info there thank you Peter.

[Peter H]

PPS. I will be in or around the HGPCA Red Truck tomorrow (Friday) at Donington with a copy of my report V5 plus forms and cross references to Regulations and HMRC Guidance Notes if anyone wants to discuss the subject.

[Simon Davey]

Really helpful information Peter, many thanks!


Simon Davey

[delta]

Had lovely chat with Peter . Clever bloke . Not a bad race driver as well . Thank you for your time today ?

[Lancsbreaker]

I'm not likely to need to use it - but that is really useful information, Peter H, for any aspiring cross-channel racers. Thank you.

[Gerard C]

My old friend Jean Marc is just back from the UK with his car. He's using a carnet ATA, and says the hassle and costs are worth the tranquillity. He often goes the legalistic way.

[Gerard C]

Another well known french racer reports that for engines and gearboxes he's helped by a customs agent, going to and from of course.

[Peter H]

Gerard, there is nothing more legalistic than using the Temporary Importation Procedures for sporting goods, as set out in the Regulations (EU Regulations (Commission Delegated Regulation (DA) 2015/2446) under inter alia Articles 212 and 213 (for ‘means of transport’) and Article 219 (for ‘goods intending to be used for sports purposes’)).

ATA Carnets have their own issues associated with them (eg, if have they been incorrectly stamped on the outward journey) which some have fallen foul of.

But, each to their own. ATA Carnets ‘work’ (but can be expensive and inflexible over their lifetime) as do the Temporary Importation Procedures (which are free, more flexible and usually involve less interaction with Customs’’ officials).

My paper merely highlights the availability of these Procedures which appear to have been completely below the radar for competitors wishing to take their cars overseas for races.

Regards

Peter

[Gerard C]

Peter I was just reporting what my french friends do, hope you dont see any personal criticism or a kind of comparaison like ATA vs another way to go through. As you say, ATM carnets ATA "work" at a cost.