Electronic Ignition.. Yes or No!

[zefarelly]

yes!

open the glove box door is the first place to look

[esper]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

yes!

open the glove box door is the first place to look

wont put it there then

[terence]

Originally Posted by esper

wont put it there then

You mean your going to move it?

[Under the drivers seat,no-one thinks of looking under there Esper]

[GORDON STREETER]

You boys going off at a tangent again , why can't you be serious like me ?
And why ain't the weather as good in Spain as it is in the UK ?

[Al Weyman]

Relax Gordon its all change for the next few days getting a lot colder and rain and of course the weekend approaches.

[terence]

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

You boys going off at a tangent again , why can't you be serious like me ?
And why ain't the weather as good in Spain as it is in the UK ?

Esper started it!! The weather? we got the order in first but dont worry Gordon,I'm sure we will have to pay for it in June,July...........

[zefarelly]

slightly back on tiopic ( its pelting down in 'sunny' Sussex this morning)

I've dyno'd 2 engines in the last month, different capacities, but near identical specifications, one on points, one on 123 electronic

both produced the same bhp per litre at 7000 rpm give or take a gnats danglies

[terence]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

slightly back on tiopic ( its pelting down in 'sunny' Sussex this morning)

I've dyno'd 2 engines in the last month, different capacities, but near identical specifications, one on points, one on 123 electronic

both produced the same bhp per litre at 7000 rpm give or take a gnats danglies

Glad about the weather Zef.
So we can all rest assured that Electronic is not going to give a massive gain.

[zefarelly]

not if its just sparkless, but I think mapped etc is a little different, and I'm sure very high revs makes a difference as well, both those engines had flat torque curves forwell over 2000rpm so not exactly peaky screamers

[terence]

Nice and usable then,ideal for endurance events,just like 6hrs?

[zefarelly]

exactly . . .

[terence]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

exactly . . .

So, is there something you want to tell us?

[zefarelly]

not yet no

I have tio run it past the committee :gulp:

[terence]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

not yet no

I have tio run it past the committee :gulp:

Well if you need any back-up references,just get in touch.

[p261brm]

Fitted a 'contactless ignition system' to Quick's E in 1968 the work of a young electrical engineer whom I can not remember his name. It eliminated the point bounce syndrome that even double springing did not entirely eliminate. I believe this was the fore runner of the Piranha. Prod sports regs allowed this modification so it was used in period, does that allow it's use today on E's? I think not, it was not a factory option and the Production sports car, and later Mod sports are not a current historic race series, though there are suggestions it should be.

[terence]

IF these types of ignition were homologated,then obviously a similar after market system should be allowed,nothing like programable was available in period though.I find it quite surprising that a replacement for the lucas box has not been re-manufactured,cant be that difficult in a world thats full of very advanced technology.

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by terence bower

IF these types of ignition were homologated,then obviously a similar after market system should be allowed,nothing like programable was available in period though.I find it quite surprising that a replacement for the lucas box has not been re-manufactured,cant be that difficult in a world thats full of very advanced technology.

There is a replacement for the Lucas Opus box.
http://www.reopus.co.uk/

[p261brm]

Originally Posted by PeterMorley

There is a replacement for the Lucas Opus box.
http://www.reopus.co.uk/

Interesting, but not rhe ignition system fitted to 61-66 1-5 litre V8's it is the system fitted to V12 Jaguars and during their 'in current use years' the Opus really was a bag of worms.

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by p261brm

Interesting, but not rhe ignition system fitted to 61-66 1-5 litre V8's it is the system fitted to V12 Jaguars and during their 'in current use years' the Opus really was a bag of worms.

Apparently it works on DFV ignition systems, which was presumably the next stage in Lucas ignition system design?

Such a system would only be a few years out of date for 1½ litre cars, presumably it is closer in operating principle than the modern systems?

[p261brm]

Originally Posted by PeterMorley

Apparently it works on DFV ignition systems, which was presumably the next stage in Lucas ignition system design?

Such a system would only be a few years out of date for 1½ litre cars, presumably it is closer in operating principle than the modern systems?

Correct, to a certain extent Lord Laidlaws P57 I do not know the system, ie the 'box' that produces the spark I assume it could be either Lucas original or Lucas capacitor discharge or MSD, the clutch housing contains the poles with the trigger mounted in the bell housing. The same on David Clark,s P48/57 the P261's spark generated by Lucas capacitor discharge (LCD), but the car does contain a complete working un-reliable original. Most of the 1-5V8's Climax or BRM are on capacitor discharge or MSD. MSD will not work with copper cored leads as per the original yellow/black. The 'shielded' leads supplied by MSD are too large in diameter to fit the Lucas cap, some have enlarged the holes others have shaved the leads to fit. There is a cord Boisecord, French that is the correct size, but a ******* to make up leads as the shield is difficult to avoid 'shorting' the the very fine 'core' wire when crimping either king or plug lead ends.The components for LCD are very dificult to obtain, so it is MSD or nothing. Climax poles are flywheel mounted otherwise components for the trgger are the same. I have no doubt that the LCD was used in the P261's Lotus 33's etc in their later lives in period, these cars used the 2litre BRM engine until 1967 in F1 but of course that precludes them from pre 66 events or does now! The only time the MSD should fall foul of regs if a throttle operated ignition advance module is incorporated, as I have said previously and to my mind totally un-aceptable. The ignition was fixed on BRM's later Climax engines did have a method of advance by shaping the poles. There is a way of wiring CDS for retarding the ignition 10 degrees to help starting reversing the wires on the trigger does the same. The original is that black box you visible on the side of these cars.

[rogerwills]

I'd like to re-ignite this debate (excuse the pun) and see if we can find a sensible solution.

I'd been sat on the fence for a long time on the issue of electronic ignition but I must say, having tried to run cars this season legally and experienced too many failures of components that cost less than a few quid and that are no longer manufactured to decent standards, I'm all for a certified FIA electronic ignition solution that everyone can run going forward.

We are not running in championships, looking to make livings from historic racing or looking for a career as historic drivers. Especially in a world of recession and dire economics. This is a hobby for 99% of us and the other 1% are either very fortunate or delusional.

But I'm not the only person out there getting sick and tired of towing our cars all over Europe to race (and have fun), trying to stay within the word of the regulations (actually there are not many of us doing that!!) and having cars fail due to poor components made in the third world letting us down.

Something has to change.......

Is there someone in the FIA looking at the historic racing world willing to be sensible????

I've had this discussion with many recently. There are way too many of us trying to enjoy this sport / hobby and not being able to because of failures of simple ignition components.

Can we get this to have a "sticky" and to find a way forward?

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by rogerwills

I'd been sat on the fence for a long time on the issue of electronic ignition

In more ways than one Roger ! My post 8 reflects what I feel about Outer Mongolian pattern parts. I was not happy when a"new" crap rotor arm fell to pieces on the 3rd lap of an hour race this year, as I actually sat on the fence and watched my race with the marshals on the GP loop at Brands

[terence]

The whole point is that whilst things like Carbon Metalic Brake pads/Shoes are allowed,something as simple as an Optronic or similar is not allowed.I just cannot understand how the FIA can stand by and watch the various car performance's ,lap times,and not ask proper questions,like,how come that car can lap twenty odd seconds faster now than it could in period!
At Spa it was quite a sight to see brake disc's glow in the dark,in period? I think not,most of us use these pads,otherwise its a pit stop around three hours[if the ignition lasts that long]

[horizon]

Roger,
From 1 Kiwi to another........leave the FIA behind and bring your cars States side. Yes, there are one or two groups that say no to this or that, but no big deal.

[terence]

I am in talks with a Gear Manufacturer about gear sets for the "B",he has been trying to talk me into having dog selection as opposed to synchro on the basis that you just cannot obtain decent synchro rings for the three sync box anymore[three is the normal fitting pre 66] Whilst we were talking,he volunteered that he has made "Quite a few" dogsets for quite a few different makes of car currently racing,I will not divulge the cars in question.
My view is,what difference would this type of box make to lap times? Nothing ,reliability,? Everything.
Externally the boxes are the same so there is no way of telling apart from the "Clunk" on engaging first gear.
I know this is sort of off topic but it is still the same principle of no performance gain,just reliability.