LMP2 Manufacturers and Engine Suppliers

[Graham Goodwin]

Originally Posted by Steve McQ

I am not sure the gap bewteen racing a full WEC P2 season (6 or 7 6h races all over the world, plus Le Mans) and racing a full ELMS season (5 4h races in Europe only and maybe Le Mans) is so big. It is now in 2023 since all P2 cars are long amortized (they started their carreer in 2017), but with new cars ?

Plus racing only in Europe would allow smaller outfits like Vanwall or Glick or any hypercar customer to test properly their machines between the races. Doing the WEC, cars are travelling 6 months a year.

Allowing only customer cars and boutique manufacturer cars in the ELMS could be a solution to equalize chances when it comes to race at Le Mans.

The budget gap between P2 in the WEC and that for ELMS plus LM24 would still be a seven figure Euro sum

[broadrun96]

Yeah, I figured it would not be a cheap transition. It's not the running time that gets them, it's the crew, lodging, food, etc that drives even higher costs. And no where near as much time for maintenance between events when you have strict travel schedules for the series, not a trip down the road

[Mike E]

Gibson to continue supplying LMP2 engines

https://www.dailysportscar.com/2023/...-supplier.html

[J Jay]

Good news, not much negative to say about the Gibson engines.

While I'm here, this is a great book on the subject.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Mike E

Gibson to continue supplying LMP2 engines

https://www.dailysportscar.com/2023/...-supplier.html

Originally Posted by J Jay

Good news, not much negative to say about the Gibson engines.

While I'm here, this is a great book on the subject.

Yes, it has been an extremely quick and reliable motor in its various configurations over its lifespan. Can't see too much to be done to it for future use. I guess it doesn't need as much power as it was originally designed for?

[helgi]

And whom could they have asked aside from Zytek? They've destroyed any tech competition between engine manufacturers, those who haven't got the contract at the highest level - whom are they supposed to build for? Anybody aside from Zytek have no adequate ability to build enough engines to be on par. And Zytek themselves are in bad situation, as they loose quality - there's no win without battle, there's no improvement without competition.

[Graham Goodwin]

Originally Posted by helgi

And whom could they have asked aside from Zytek? They've destroyed any tech competition between engine manufacturers, those who haven't got the contract at the highest level - whom are they supposed to build for? Anybody aside from Zytek have no adequate ability to build enough engines to be on par. And Zytek themselves are in bad situation, as they loose quality - there's no win without battle, there's no improvement without competition.

Perfectly OK to have an opinion - but to ignore just how good the engine is and the competition in LMP2 has been seems somewhat obtuse.

[broadrun96]

Ah, optimism from Graham about comments on the Internet. Pretty sure the only time that poster comes in is to say how dumb everyone and everything is

[helgi]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Ah, optimism from Graham about comments on the Internet. Pretty sure the only time that poster comes in is to say how dumb everyone and everything is

I've came and say that it's dumb to name anything good if you can not compare it to anything. It looks a lot like some form of a communism. For some reason it's not "obtuse" only to chant for glory of those who is making a useless show out of proper racing. Someday they won't need any talking heads because nobody, aside from "pilot's" friends, is going to be interested in that form of circus. Just compare your own 2000s fruitful web site with a modern dull one. But, for sure, dumb is only me, because I say something out of common line.

[Akrapovic]

We seem to like to play both sides of the argument in the sportscar world. We'll shout about how diverse a class is with all these different cars. Then in the next breath we'll say who needs diversity when you have great racing!

I don't think anybody is wrong for wanting a more diverse grid.

[Adam43]

And what we have at the moment is both sides! It is diverse, but also we have this second class which is an affordable backbone that gets drivers, teams, engineers, etc… a foothold in endurance racing.

You have to understand the pragmatism that is needed to have this stability and volume if entries.

On top of that I can certainly see talent rising to the top.

Yes, wouldn’t it be great for massive diversity. We have seen what can happen here. It ends up hardly any more diverse because there is only six cars!

Originally Posted by helgi

I really would like to be an optimist but with no Zytek-Gibson, HPD, Dome and no possibility for other manufacturers and teams to develop their own chassis - it's just have less and less sense to prefer LMP2 over different formulae. No engineering vs better speed. And it looks like many teams are going to leave in favour of GT3. So do young talented pilots. Can't see any advantages for LMP2.

Imagine if they hadn’t made the changes they did to LMP2 - how many cars could we have seen racing?

Keeping it affordable has just meant several teams have raced in it. Oddly some using it as practice and development for the top class.

[helgi]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I don't think anybody is wrong for wanting a more diverse grid.

I've came fresh from watching Brazilian Endurance race - and I'll easily swap the whole season of ELMS monocup for a single event with those cars. No spec engine, chassis suppliers modify their cars if clients want to use different engine. And a local Metalmoro prototype - making it's lap time completely differently - hold off a track version of JS P320. Not saying about more national Gaucho championship with even more prototype variety.

Why on Earth do we have to enjoy a monocup as the pinacle of the whole Europe sportscar racing?

I have absolutely nothing against Gibson, because I remember those days when they compete against Lola, HPD and other minor manufacturers. And those battles (with different engines) is the main thing that attracted me in this type of racing. All that tech talks from Racecar Engineering. It was mind blowing to chat before the race and after with so much stuff to discuss. That was the driving force. Real life variety.

If it would have been a modern like nonsense - I'd stick to F1 boredom better. For example, the same Brazil, but their Touring series. They've introduced a new type of "stock-cars" with lots of structural parts from road going chassis and enormous 6L engines. Not "spec" ones. The wave of interest was huge. But for 2025 they return to roll cage soap boxes with spec engines. Do you believe it will be that successful abroad?

I always thought that sportscar racing were all about cars, not drivers. If you want to support "pilots" then some formulae monocups are you premium choice. Lots of fans can say which car won Le Mans in a mentioned year, but few of them are able to name all the winning drivers. And it's enormously frustrating when people who depressed by the fact of loosing a proper racing are always being treated like grumbling idiots.

Why do Brazilians or Argentinians (their TC from tech perspective is way more interesting than a spec monocup) are blessed to have a proper championship and in Europe you have to pray for some lower leagues decide to stream their club events - just to enjoy some racing? Just annoyed by people who are talking "you don't understand, it's going the best possible way out of the economical situation etc" 24/7. If Brazil or Argentina can afford normal variety in racing - then, what - they have better economical situation? Or, maybe, they just love proper racing?

I know, I know. "What a pathetic pathos". Local optimists should be happy. I'm not going to waste time onto this nonsense for another 5 years. But someone from those optimists should have take lessons from Markus Schurig who is not afraid of asking uncomfortable questions.

[Akrapovic]

I'm not saying I agree with you (I don't), but I absolutely respect anyone who wants more variety. More series than ever have become spec series.

[J Jay]

Even in the heyday of sportscars, drivers had near-equal billing; this isn't and should never be Roborace. While I think the focus has shifted too much towards the drivers (for reasons best discussed in other threads), someone has to grip the wheel and stamp the pedals.

From many series organisers' points of view, especially if maintenance/travel costs are already high (e.g. cross-continent series), specifying components/suppliers is seen as a way to keep a lid on costs. The reduction in variety also has its benefits, if we're being cynical - it's much easier to rein in performance in spec series, for instance. Ultimately, it works for the ACO and the current audience.

[broadrun96]

Weirdly I don't see this level of let's destroy what we love because why learn anything from the past in open wheel. The variety of cars in F4, F3, F2 and the engines is astounding. Oh wait, no they're exactly the same thing and it's understood to be development for both teams and drivers. LMP2 works to develop early Pros and teams and provides a good stable, in both driving and development, to help teams and the paying drivers come to play. It was attempted to be a multi-path chassis option but to keep pricing down development HAS to be limited and some got it VERY wrong. LMDh could help this with the platforms being developed BEFORE LMP2 uses them. LMP3 has had a better run but when then only 2 options have remained mainstream.

[Adam43]

We want cars on track. It would be wonderful for them all to be different and not a collection of **** boxes. What we have now is a pragmatic solution to affordability on an international stage.

It is the back up to a, currently, diverse series.

The fantasy world is great, but the ACO have to make tough decisions to keep their series viable and sustainable. They want to be a success, maybe they are pleased it is, but the main reason is they don’t want it to die like the previous versions!

But to come in here every five years or so and just say the same thing with no appreciation of any context is going to wind people up. We’re all basically on the same page in the fantasy what would be great. To tell people who understand the pragmatic solution and appreciate good racing they are idiots ain’t going to go down well.

Still, I am of to a golf forum to tell their sport is dull. I’m a hero.

[E.B]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Still, I am of to a golf forum to tell their sport is dull. I’m a hero.

That made me chuckle more than it should have!

[helgi]

I see, Brazil and Argentina have better economy and can afford not to be that pragmatic and not making monopoly out of auto sport. Or their sport authorities are not just a bunch of moth-eaten old bureaucrats trying to organize a children's party.
Why should I write it more than once in 5 years, if I clearly see, that all those 2,5 fans who were not happy with the situation are already gone from this forum. Even if I write it everyday nothing will change this boredom. They told it would be another 5 years of "stability". A good opportunity to notice, that "not every thing is that obvious".

[J Jay]

Come on, don't be facetious. National series will always be more flexible than international series, given the much higher running costs (mainly travel). I actually think you're being kind to the ACO with regards to the chassis - the timing was always suspicious, given Oreca just-happened to have a headstart on a prototype chassis - but nobody can change this now.

I remember saying this the last time someone else lamented the state of LMP2, so at the risk of repeating myself:

Almost everyone here would go back to the 2014-2016 regulations in a heartbeat, if it was on offer. It provided racing as good as we see now, the inherent uncertainty due to the variety in chasses and engines, and it kept costs reasonable (to quote Hindhaugh/Collins, "Cost-cutting that actually cuts costs!") But it isn't, and, like it or not, there is an abundance of entries for all ACO LMP2-based series, so the teams have come to terms with the change.

You could rightly argue that the ACO holds the trump card (Le Mans entries), but post-2017 the majority of teams have been genuinely enthusiastic, daresay preferred, the stability and certainty of the 2017-onwards regulations. It fits in with the wider push from the ACO for technological development to be limited to the top classes, and really only for the factory-backed teams, which I do not agree with, but I think is outside the scope of this discussion.

Many of us have decided to respect/tolerate that choice as it brings more cars to the track and improves the on-track spectacle (closer racing, better reliability). It does not mean we agree with decisions made, but if the choice is fewer cars on track, it's not hard to see why fans would prefer the option that populates the grid. If anyone disagrees to the point that they do not want to watch, this is also valid. Yes, those fans aren't here anymore, and I sincerely hope that they are enjoying their new pursuits.

[Adam43]

Helgi, we all, in theory, would like to see variety. We also actually want to see cars!

I count LMP2 as a success and forms part of the bedrock for teams to sustainably race in this series (they can race these cars year after year). This in turn has allowed the development of the other two classes at Le Mans into something that is quite fun.

And I can still see engineering excellence in all those categories, including LMP2.

But see you in a year or two when you post again and see none of this context and just say the same thing again! The discussion has moved on. Some time ago

[broadrun96]

The only folks IN racing who want wide open regs are those with unlimited pockets, they don't exist any more. Even top spec saved money and locked in cars because they too haven't found the fountain of cash

[Adam43]

While I am not going to claim that they have always made the right decisions, those running the sport have had to make decisions and I can see why we have got to where we are. And most of them I suspect I’d have made the same pragmatic decisions.

If the world was perfect it would be different. It isn’t.

[Mike E]

Originally Posted by Mike E

Gibson to continue supplying LMP2 engines

https://www.dailysportscar.com/2023/...-supplier.html

Sorry I mentioned it

[Adam43]

It’s good for the series. It’s a good engine.

[broadrun96]

Sounds better than the LMP3 lump that is far too loud for the speeds it's going