LMP2 Manufacturers and Engine Suppliers

[FIRE]

The single engine formula isn't annoying me, but I would like to see some competition for the Oreca chassis.

[veeten]

Hey, don't forget these guys..

https://www.juddpower.com

[helgi]

Originally Posted by J Jay

Come on, don't be facetious. National series will always be more flexible than international series, given the much higher running costs (mainly travel). I actually think you're being kind to the ACO with regards to the chassis - the timing was always suspicious, given Oreca just-happened to have a headstart on a prototype chassis - but nobody can change this now.

Acureca Orelpine story is not even a joke already. It's a clear mark for the level of "highly sophisticated prototypes" today. I won't wonder, by this logics, that climbing back to trees is going to be classified as a pragmatic step considering all types of difficulties the World is suffering.

Funny to read about "folks IN racing who want wide open regs are those with unlimited pockets". I clearly remember normal LMP2 with University teams and garagists who had built their own cars. Where are they now? Oh, they should have way too large pockets and now build their own Mars stations.

Looks like I represent a marginal minority of those fans who prefer autosport and rather then driver-o-sport. As monsieur Poirot said: "Round and around in the circles. Never will I understand the passion for such a pointless pastime". McRae and Loeb had clearly shown that a rally driver is a superior sportsman than just a "pilot". The whole interest in circling around is a test for the machine at the highest level. If there's no comparision in tech then it's waist of time and wallets.

For sure, if ACO have taken a route to some kind of deindustrialisation for their top series, then it's obvious not to have supporting classes as it was previously. It's the same for F1. They've destroyed junior formulae who used to provide not only talented drivers but engineers and even whole teams upwards. So, we have Newey as the last proper designer. After he leaves to yacht building the whole F1 could be reverted into another Dallara highly sophisticated cup with BoPped engines.

With no proper junior prototype classes for constructors it's a dead end for the top series. Sooner or later manufacturers are going to loose their interest and for 100500 time leave highly sophisticated sporting authorities with nothing to play. Well, you'll have 10-15 LMP2 teams and name Oreca monocup as a WC, but I've already prefer better racing in America (South and North) and Japan - thanks to YT it's possible to watch them.

As for the comments here it all looks like a collective self-persuasion session. "Tout va très bien, Madame la Marquise...."

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by FIRE

The single engine formula isn't annoying me, but I would like to see some competition for the Oreca chassis.

Well you have to think the LMDh development may make the other chassis be viable BUT can they make enough to make extras? Porsche is limiting new 963s but can Multimatic make new base chassis extra with the new regs? Can Dallara make enough learning from Caddy and BMW? Ligier will have data from Lamborghini so here's to hope they can all make another run at it.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by helgi

Funny to read about "folks IN racing who want wide open regs are those with unlimited pockets". I clearly remember normal LMP2 with University teams and garagists who had built their own cars. Where are they now? Oh, they should have way too large pockets and now build their own Mars stations.

Looks like I represent a marginal minority of those fans who prefer autosport and rather then driver-o-sport. As monsieur Poirot said: "Round and around in the circles. Never will I understand the passion for such a pointless pastime". McRae and Loeb had clearly shown that a rally driver is a superior sportsman than just a "pilot". The whole interest in circling around is a test for the machine at the highest level. If there's no comparision in tech then it's waist of time and wallets.

No, you're in the HUGE minority of those who pretend things are the way they think they are NOT what reality shows. Dome, went out of business WELLLLLL before the new rules and were barely holding on with volunteers and students and well off the pace. Lola was abosulte GARBAGE and every team who had one and the AMR-Lola did nothing but whinge on about having to rebuild the car and then yup, bankrupt. Ginetta had a car but well off the pace, didn't have the backing and have pulled back from that to make a product they know well. BR was fully funded by a now non-existent cash supply. Pescarolo ran out of money themselves before they could even attempt a car. Gibson/Zytec saw the writing with their car and adjusted, now have a great business in things they do well

OK, so where exactly were these cars you think well out in force on the track again? Yeah, when cars could be built in a shed, did 5 min laps and any wreck caused utter failure of the tube frame there were cars a plenty. But guess what, we matured to actual professional TEAM motorsport and made the drivers and teams FAR FAR FAR more professional as a SPORT. You've just decided to randomly decide that without garbage field filler efforts that made in less than half the race was "more sporting." No, that's just SCCA endurance racing, we have that still and you can watch cars built in a shed all over the planet. I on the other hand would like to watch those who are professional in every sense race the fastest car that can be viable instead of a car that burns all their money in a week and they poof disappear. Yes, some of those teams are fondly remembered but most for their failure and disappearance than the professional quality of their approach

[helgi]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

No, you're in the HUGE minority of those who pretend things are the way they think they are NOT what reality shows.

Even if the situation with ancient manufacturers - who had suddenly lost their abilities to construct ORECA beaters - is correct, there were still lots of constructors who could develop a car upon their knowledge from CN. And this was normal life. If someone is not good enough then there's other one that is better. But ACO have chosen a way for creating a monopoly. Well, maybe I was lied, but everyone had told me, that monopoly is not the way when you want to get the best product for a reasonable price. Still, I'm over the moon being in this microscopic minority who prefer the joy of engineering adventures by creators instead of being just a pompous motorized wallet.

[Adam43]

In motor racing, quite clearly, competition (on track) drives up (off track) costs. There are 6 million examples of this. Those who spend more win. Until the competition stops.

The ACO and IMSA currently have two or three models that they are using to make sure the competition is sustainable.

LMP2 is just one of those. It is suitable for that second prototype class. As is Hypercar and GT3 for those classes.

Again, we all like the idea of completely open and free competition, but the rule makers are sick of boom and bust.

Although for the chassis we did have competition and ORECA won it! Comprehensively!

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Although for the chassis we did have competition and ORECA won it! Comprehensively!

This is true, but it wasn't as clean cut as that was it? ORECA just happened to have a head start on the new LMP2 regulations, and then the way the regulations are written means nobody is allowed to adjust their product apart from 1 set of heavily regulated "joker" upgrades.

Imagine that in any other sport. The new football league is going to have one game. And only one team is allowed to know the rules before hand. And if you lose, thats it. But in 2 years we might give a rematch - but only if we decide it, and even then it's after the winning team has had years of income from the win, and you don't get anything.

I don't agree with helgi rather extreme views, but I don't think looking at LMP2 and saying "certain points of this were a failure, and it is much less diverse than it should/could be" is a bad thing.

[PhilipR]

I think Oreca ended up monopolising the market because their car was the most consistent across all racetracks - the ligier in capable hands was as fast as the oreca but seem to have a narrower working window than the oreca. The Dallara was never really run by a top team - and it showed its speed as the Cadillac DPI. The Riley oh well - the less said the better

Another change to LMP2 in the last few years is the professionalism of the teams - lookat lmp2 in 2016 and now - most teams could run Hypercar programmes nowadays and even the small ones have evolved rapidly into top teams i.e interuropol, Panis racing etc. The more professional is getting the more the teams will push for the best package

Now should have ACO done anything to bring the others in line with the oreca? And how much can you do on a cost cap formula to catch up without massive redesign , I do not know

Also with the 2026 lmp2s, my worry is the manufacturers will be too interested in developing LMDHs that they will not care much for the actual LMP2 and again one manufacturer will dominate

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by PhilipR

I think Oreca ended up monopolising the market because their car was the most consistent across all racetracks - the ligier in capable hands was as fast as the oreca but seem to have a narrower working window than the oreca. The Dallara was never really run by a top team - and it showed its speed as the Cadillac DPI. The Riley oh well - the less said the better

Another change to LMP2 in the last few years is the professionalism of the teams - lookat lmp2 in 2016 and now - most teams could run Hypercar programmes nowadays and even the small ones have evolved rapidly into top teams i.e interuropol, Panis racing etc. The more professional is getting the more the teams will push for the best package

Now should have ACO done anything to bring the others in line with the oreca? And how much can you do on a cost cap formula to catch up without massive redesign , I do not know

Also with the 2026 lmp2s, my worry is the manufacturers will be too interested in developing LMDHs that they will not care much for the actual LMP2 and again one manufacturer will dominate

Hey, the Riley was fine once you changed the bodywork, the team, the suspension and then the suspension and more in the DPi joker, and called it a Mazda

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Well you have to think the LMDh development may make the other chassis be viable BUT can they make enough to make extras? Porsche is limiting new 963s but can Multimatic make new base chassis extra with the new regs? Can Dallara make enough learning from Caddy and BMW? Ligier will have data from Lamborghini so here's to hope they can all make another run at it.

Therefore it will be interesting to see if competitors of Oreca can develop a better car and get some market share. I have good hope Multimatic can.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by FIRE

Therefore it will be interesting to see if competitors of Oreca can develop a better car and get some market share. I have good hope Multimatic can.

Originally Posted by PhilipR

Also with the 2026 lmp2s, my worry is the manufacturers will be too interested in developing LMDHs that they will not care much for the actual LMP2 and again one manufacturer will dominate

I share the same fear but there is a market for probably what 50 plus of the next gen whenever they come out so you have to think each one will want some of that action

[joeb]

Originally Posted by FIRE

Therefore it will be interesting to see if competitors of Oreca can develop a better car and get some market share. I have good hope Multimatic can.

I think Ligier entering with the Lambo in LMDh is a good sign for the company, getting some modern track experience with a prototype has to be positive for moving in the LMP2 direction.

Dallara also has a couple of different (3 if you count Ferrari) cars to be drawing data from at the moment and perhaps that will translate to a better P2 package as well.

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

This is true, but it wasn't as clean cut as that was it? ORECA just happened to have a head start on the new LMP2 regulations, and then the way the regulations are written means nobody is allowed to adjust their product apart from 1 set of heavily regulated "joker" upgrades.

I'll add my voice to this - as much as shouting at the wind about post-2017 LMP2 is pointless now, it should never be forgotten that it was a rather blatant and successful attempt by the ACO to give Oreca an unassailable advantage, which led to the pseudo-spec chassis class LMP2 currently is. It was called out as such at the time as well (a rather tense RLM interview with Hugues de Chaunac comes to mind).

Originally Posted by PhilipR

Another change to LMP2 in the last few years is the professionalism of the teams - lookat lmp2 in 2016 and now - most teams could run Hypercar programmes nowadays and even the small ones have evolved rapidly into top teams i.e interuropol, Panis racing etc. The more professional is getting the more the teams will push for the best package.

I think this will be the justification given for the inevitable move towards one chassis post-2026 as well. Hopefully the LMDh considerations will level the playing field for LMP2 somewhat.

[JimboCycling]

Originally Posted by J Jay

I'll add my voice to this - as much as shouting at the wind about post-2017 LMP2 is pointless now, it should never be forgotten that it was a rather blatant and successful attempt by the ACO to give Oreca an unassailable advantage, which led to the pseudo-spec chassis class LMP2 currently is. It was called out as such at the time as well (a rather tense RLM interview with Hugues de Chaunac comes to mind).



I think this will be the justification given for the inevitable move towards one chassis post-2026 as well. Hopefully the LMDh considerations will level the playing field for LMP2 somewhat.

I've just dug out the old episode. It's noticeable how much daily sports car and radio le mans used to work together. Shame they don't seem to any more.

[helgi]

Well, monopoly doesn't help with professionalism. 80 hp down the limit of 700 is more than 10%. Having in mind all the stories I was told in this thread and building parallel lines, it looks like "Lola" needed only a helping hand of sporting authorities to build a monocup for them - and we would have had a Lolorsche Hypercar instead of a Porsh-o-matic one.

All I see is that a pragmatic way of monopolies somehow doesn't enhance the professionalism, which is clear on a competitive level (man, even BoP doesn't help and it says everything).

[Adam43]

Off topic.

That’s a stretch to make that fit this narrative! All while not understanding what BoP does.

Vanwall’s situation is nothing to do with LMP2 and BoP might be right, but it can’t even get to the BoP levels. Not that BoP is meant to make up for a bad car.

To discuss this:

The BoP thread is here: https://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=157179
The Kolles thread is here: https://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=141869

This is LMP2 thread.

[helgi]

So communistic to shut the speech if the authority doesn't like it. I've said that LMP2 monopoly leads to weak results. Then there's a provement of my words as outside of LMP2 they can not deliver a proper engine.

No wonder almost every non standard-minded has left this dictatorship forum.

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by helgi

So communistic to shut the speech if the authority doesn't like it. I've said that LMP2 monopoly leads to weak results. Then there's a provement of my words as outside of LMP2 they can not deliver a proper engine.

No wonder almost every non standard-minded has left this dictatorship forum.

... which is why you should have posted outside of this thread, in the Kolles thread as suggested. Your point is a good one, which I agree with, but while you could argue it began with LMP2, the end result isn't concerned with LMP2, so it should not be in this thread.

If you're only interested in pithy soundbites then don't be surprised when there is pushback.

[Adam43]

[standard thinking communist mod note]

Back to LMP2, thanks.

Originally Posted by Adam43

To discuss this:

The BoP thread is here: https://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=157179
The Kolles thread is here: https://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=141869

[/standard thinking communist mod note]

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by helgi

No wonder almost every non standard-minded has left this dictatorship forum.

I'm fairly certain ZERO folks here have accused me of being standard minded poster who follows the communist plots. More like I can think and see WHY things occur instead of demanding everything be my way or it's communism. We have those folks here in the US, usually they are ignored and often follow right wing nuts.

Oh, fyi communism would not be accurate. The words you should be using you finally used, dictatorial. But in this case oligarchy as there are multiple admins. If you want to be that guy at least be accurately that guy

[Mike E]

This is a very good read on the future of LMP2..

https://www.dailysportscar.com/2024/...mplicated.html

As a fan, I would like them to crack on with introducing the new rules. I would like some variety in the class, assuming everyone doesn't just go with Oreca anyway as the safe option

[Bentley03]

Daily Sportscar have published a comprehensive update (credited to Stephen Kilbey) regarding the state of play, as they understand it, in the implimentation of the next generation LMP2 regs. It's a very interesting read: What’s Next For LMP2? It’s Complicated…

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by Mike E

This is a very good read on the future of LMP2..

https://www.dailysportscar.com/2024/...mplicated.html

As a fan, I would like them to crack on with introducing the new rules. I would like some variety in the class, assuming everyone doesn't just go with Oreca anyway as the safe option

Great minds and all that...

[Mike E]

Or simple minds