MSNZ & TMC - 'Wheels start to come off'

[drftin]

Originally Posted by socram

Club Officials may know of course, but the rank and file wouldn't really have a clue.

I think there's your answer. Club officials will know because they are they ones invited to attend.
If you want to be involved you'd need to contact your club?

[Worsel]

I see this thread started 15 April 2012, 4 years ago. The same people are banging on and on, and I'm over it.

MNZ AGM Stop blaming MNZ for you not knowing when its on, you all, as licence holders, belong to a MNZ affiliated club. It is your club's responsibilty to communicate with its members (you), not MNZ. If you are not happy, talk to your club, get them to raise the issues. Get them to communicate with you.

We all know the faults that have happened with MNZ and TMC etc., I didn't like it either, but its long over. We all know that Mr Petch is taking legal action, thats his decision and I respect him for that, and it is only him that can decide whether to continue or not with the action against the sport that WILL cost licence holders if it continues, MNZ has limited income streams.

The constitution and rules of MNZ have changed, they are not perfect. Work with your clubs to make it better.

[bluespur]

Good post Worsel.

Be part of the solution but the problem.

There have been quite large changes in the way the Board are elected with I understand more to come from a team put in place at last AGCM. All the issues with MSNZ, TMC, Petch are so far n the past I am struggling to see just what is being achieved expect more cost to licence holders as that remains now and in the future the largest source of MSNZ income.

What does concern me is the continued viability of our tracks. Do not accept simply ramping up charges is the way to fix it. That simply breeds a feeling that to get anything done just chuck money at it. Where is the club passion, sure seems to have disappeared and as MSNZ is made up of clubs that is the issue n my opinion. We need to get our clubs to perform better and provide services to their members, both officials and competitors.

[Goat Boy]

I reckon you need a lot more young people, the motoring enthusiasts who wear baggy pants and their caps backwards - there seems to be plenty of them around with loud cars just begging to be raced...

[socram]

I think one or two are missing the point. As licence holders we get already regular communications from MSNZ. None of those communications have mentioned the AGM!

Secondly, a large club may have a percentage of people with varied interests which may in fact be contradictory. Rally people may see things differently from Clubsport who may see things differently from Circuit racers and so on. Only having one vote to represent maybe 400 members doesn't make much sense.

Thanks Deb for the date and location and closing dates!

Maybe some clubs could be more proactive in regard to communications, but rightly or wrongly, playing devil's advocate is sometimes the only way to get things into the public domain - and to a wider audience.

The vast majority of competitors or licence holders are not really interested in what happens behind the scenes, as many on here will testify. All they really want, is to hand over an entry fee, turn up and compete. It's as simple as that.

They are happy to leave the all the organisation, at all levels, to the hard working minority, who do so selflessly, week in week out, year in year out, but when those officials are in fact paid servants if you want to put it that way, they want a degree of transparency and value for money and some semblance of support and understanding for all levels of the sport. Surely, having some direct say in the decision making process isn't too much to ask?

[Bill Brown]

Originally Posted by Worsel

I see this thread started 15 April 2012, 4 years ago. The same people are banging on and on, and I'm over it.

MNZ AGM Stop blaming MNZ for you not knowing when its on, you all, as licence holders, belong to a MNZ affiliated club. It is your club's responsibilty to communicate with its members (you), not MNZ. If you are not happy, talk to your club, get them to raise the issues. Get them to communicate with you.

We all know the faults that have happened with MNZ and TMC etc., I didn't like it either, but its long over. We all know that Mr Petch is taking legal action, thats his decision and I respect him for that, and it is only him that can decide whether to continue or not with the action against the sport that WILL cost licence holders if it continues, MNZ has limited income streams.

The constitution and rules of MNZ have changed, they are not perfect. Work with your clubs to make it better.

10 out of 10 for that post.

[Worsel]

Originally Posted by socram

I think one or two are missing the point. As licence holders we get already regular communications from MSNZ. None of those communications have mentioned the AGM!

The AGM was mentioned in the March publication of Accelerate from MNZ which I believe was sent to all members (at least those whom have email addresses). Although the ACTUAL dates were not advised, both the President's column and the CEO's column mentioned that it was coming up in May, and we were also advised that the paperwork for remits & notice of AGM had been sent to affiliated clubs in February. Pretty well covered I would have thought.

[Southern Man]

Originally Posted by Worsel

The AGM was mentioned in the March publication of Accelerate from MNZ which I believe was sent to all members (at least those whom have email addresses). Although the ACTUAL dates were not advised, both the President's column and the CEO's column mentioned that it was coming up in May, and we were also advised that the paperwork for remits & notice of AGM had been sent to affiliated clubs in February. Pretty well covered I would have thought.

Please stop using facts in this discussion or you will be sent to stand in a corner.

[Trevor NZ]

Originally Posted by Southern Man

Please stop using facts in this discussion or you will be sent to stand in a corner.

The historical and absolutely significant applicable FACT, is covered within socram’s above post no. 2305, i.e.

“Only having one vote to represent maybe 400 members doesn't make much sense.”

[Worsel]

Originally Posted by Trevor NZ

The historical and absolutely significant applicable FACT, is covered within socram’s above post no. 2305, i.e.

“Only having one vote to represent maybe 400 members doesn't make much sense.”

Maybe not, but nor is one vote for a club with maybe 30 or so members.

Personally I am happy with the club I am involved with (approx 180 members) having one vote, I don't always agree with how we vote but at least we discuss things, such is democracy.

Nothing in life is perfect, hardly anything in life is fair, its a matter of making the best of what we have, or working to change it.

[socram]

Originally Posted by Worsel

Maybe not, but nor is one vote for a club with maybe 30 or so members.

...its a matter of making the best of what we have, or working to change it.

Again, is it fair that a club with 15 members has the same voting power as one with 400 members? Or put it another way. Is it fair that 20 votes representing 300 people but 1 vote representing the wishes of 400, so the real majority get outvoted?

In badminton locally, we had several clubs of varying sizes and the association AGM was quite straightforward. Each club had one vote per 10 paid up members. That meant that the club reps on a club with 100 members could happily vote 6 in favour and 4 against. That is fair is it not?

Why are people so against such a move?

Most of us know why and therefore they are not going to vote for what is intrinsically more democratic.

Maybe the Auckland MGCC with 400 members, (350 of whom have now withdrawn from MSNZ affiliation), along with BMW, Alfa, HRC etc., could have or should restructure into a host of smaller 15 member clubs, each with 1 vote. They may only have needed to do it for a year or two... Who would be bleating then?

This is not a blast at MSNZ or its officials, it is merely pointing out the facts.

[Goat Boy]

Why not just set up a rival organization and stop paying fees to MSNZ?

[Southern Man]

Hi socram

Perhaps if all the marque clubs along with the remainder of the car clubs from the Auckland region actually attended conference rather than sniping from the security of the side lines they would also become better informed and actually be part of the process of democracy.

We all accept that there is a large number of marque participants from the Auckland region but what is not recognised is that there is an appalling lack of number of the younger set coming through the sport from the Auckland region.
Have a look at club activity, how many autocrosses , hillclimbs, bent sprints etc are there happening. How many standing & flying 1/4 miles are there. How many car trials are there? How many drift meetings are there at clubsport level. In truth how much clubsport is there in the region? Where are your next lot of competitors coming from? they can't start at V8Supercar level.

Along with those issues as you well know, there is also a serious lack of event organisers, marshals and officials. This is a trend that is becoming more and more apparent around the countryside however some regions do have a better handle on it than others.

Auckland region does have some serious issues that they need to get their heads around before they start worrying about whats happening around the remainder of the country. Attend to those I will be very surprised if the rest of your concerns don't quietly fade away.

[Goat Boy]

We don't have a shortage of young men with baggy pants and neither does the Waikato. Perhaps more effort needs to be made to reach out to them?

[Trevor NZ]

Originally Posted by socram

Again, is it fair that a club with 15 members has the same voting power as one with 400 members? Or put it another way. Is it fair that 20 votes representing 300 people but 1 vote representing the wishes of 400, so the real majority get outvoted?

In badminton locally, we had several clubs of varying sizes and the association AGM was quite straightforward. Each club had one vote per 10 paid up members. That meant that the club reps on a club with 100 members could happily vote 6 in favour and 4 against. That is fair is it not?

Why are people so against such a move?

Most of us know why and therefore they are not going to vote for what is intrinsically more democratic.

Maybe the Auckland MGCC with 400 members, (350 of whom have now withdrawn from MSNZ affiliation), along with BMW, Alfa, HRC etc., could have or should restructure into a host of smaller 15 member clubs, each with 1 vote. They may only have needed to do it for a year or two... Who would be bleating then?

This is not a blast at MSNZ or its officials, it is merely pointing out the facts.

From the outset and over many, many years it has been the officials who have ensured that a constitution which works in their favour remains uncontested. Those that pay have no democratic rights. Their votes always become divided and balanced towards a desired result.

[Southern Man]

Originally Posted by Trevor NZ

From the outset and over many, many years it has been the officials who have ensured that a constitution which works in their favour remains uncontested. Those that pay have no democratic rights. Their votes always become divided and balanced towards a desired result.

Trevor some of your comments are so far out of touch that it is becoming an absolute joke. The office staff are the paid people and they have no say in the Constitution. That quite simply that is there is to it.

It is the member clubs that decide the Constitution for after all MSNZ started life as the Association of New Zealand Car Clubs Inc. Not the Association of Competitors who hold a Motorsport Competition Licence.

Perhaps you would be well advised to actually read the new Constitution rather than rattle on about what you think it contains now or what you thought it contained previously.

The Executive members and Commission members are not paid. Clerks of Course, Stewards, CRO's etc are not paid.

If marshals at an event are getting an allowance then that is paid for by the event organiser. Once upon a time it was easy to get Marshals and they did everything for free but now as there are fewer and fewer of them covering a number of event they do need to stop subsidising the competitors activities and start looking after themselves a wee bit.

You like many others will have given away hundreds of hours for the betterment of the competitors over the years past but with the current cost of living in this world I doubt if you would be doing so now, especially if your employment required you to work 6 days a week and 10 - 11 hour days as so many of the current crop of marshals do. A day off work now costs them and competitors need to realise and appreciate that.

Yes entry fees are getting higher everyday but race ones are a damn side less than rally ones. It is called user pays and unfortunately our general sport is now having to pay for many items that we used to get as donations or support from the community.

Today the community want the sport to pay for bringing the sport to them.

I too wish that sport wise things could be as they used to be but those days are gone and we will never see them again. What we all need to do is to ensure that the sport has a future in New Zealand and that we can see more people enjoying the sport as much as we all have

[Trevor NZ]

Nameless Southern man,

It is unfortunate that derogative personal comment has now entered the debate.

However I agree with your statement whereby you have unwittingly outlined the vitally important issue, i.e. —-

“It is the member clubs that decide the Constitution for after all MSNZ started life as the Association of New Zealand Car Clubs Inc. Not the Association of Competitors who hold a Motorsport Competition Licence.”

The remainder is irrelevant.

Trevor Sheffield.

[Trevor NZ]

Originally Posted by Trevor NZ

The essence of the problem. ---

Repeating what I have previously posted, I point out that the current undemocratic voting system has existed to the detriment of the sport since near day one. The problems involving stupid and selfishly exercised authority has existed from when I was a competitor as well as secretary/treasure of the Northern Sports Car Club more than fifty years back.

All else is ****ing into the wind. LOL Only if and when this can be achieved is restructure possible.

Surely the confirmed payment of a fee confirming membership of an affiliated club and hence the national organisation, should provide an individual the automatic entitlement to one vote. You should get what you pay for. Any claim towards representing clubs, rather than individuals is surely invalid.

How can anything which is in fact abnormal be called for, or even considered. Is this not the foundation of all democratic organisations? Is this not the foundation of all commerce? One share, one vote.

Should and if members so desire, specific regulations covering say competitive events or whatever, can be confined to a vote open only to those directly involved, as can be confirmed for example, through the ownership of a competition license. Again confirming genuine a valid interest and authority, as a result the paying of a fee.

Compliments of the season, Trevor.

Refer page 148, *2212. Posts which follow outline this very real problem.

[Goat Boy]

Hi Trevor, everyone knows Southern Man is Carl from down south and he's happy for it be known as far as I know so he's not trying to hide.

[Southern Man]

Originally Posted by Trevor NZ

Nameless Southern man,

It is unfortunate that derogative personal comment has now entered the debate.

However I agree with your statement whereby you have unwittingly outlined the vitally important issue, i.e. —-

“It is the member clubs that decide the Constitution for after all MSNZ started life as the Association of New Zealand Car Clubs Inc. Not the Association of Competitors who hold a Motorsport Competition Licence.”

The remainder is irrelevant.

Trevor Sheffield.

The remainder is quite relevant, the fact that it does not fall in line with your point of view does not render it irrelevant.

[socram]

Originally Posted by Southern Man

Perhaps if all the marque clubs along with the remainder of the car clubs from the Auckland region actually attended conference rather than sniping from the security of the side lines they would also become better informed and actually be part of the process of democracy.

I was indeed at part of conference a couple of years ago, flying down at my own expense, specifically for the H & C workshop, (where the timing was changed after I'd booked my flights...) and the marque clubs of MGCC, BMW and Alfa Romeo were definitely represented, as was TACCOC, HRC, and ACC, between them having just a few votes but representing probably well over 1,500 club members, well over.

I have no idea how many of their members are licence holders, but I'd guess at well over 600? No doubt others will know.

That figure would be higher today given the success of U2K. HRC's newsletter goes out to over 4,500 people.

You seem to be totally oblivious of the reality of the numbers.

[Mark Petch]

Originally Posted by Southern Man

Trevor some of your comments are so far out of touch that it is becoming an absolute joke. The office staff are the paid people and they have no say in the Constitution. That quite simply that is there is to it.

It is the member clubs that decide the Constitution for after all MSNZ started life as the Association of New Zealand Car Clubs Inc. Not the Association of Competitors who hold a Motorsport Competition Licence.

Perhaps you would be well advised to actually read the new Constitution rather than rattle on about what you think it contains now or what you thought it contained previously.

The Executive members and Commission members are not paid. Clerks of Course, Stewards, CRO's etc are not paid.

If marshals at an event are getting an allowance then that is paid for by the event organiser. Once upon a time it was easy to get Marshals and they did everything for free but now as there are fewer and fewer of them covering a number of event they do need to stop subsidising the competitors activities and start looking after themselves a wee bit.

You like many others will have given away hundreds of hours for the betterment of the competitors over the years past but with the current cost of living in this world I doubt if you would be doing so now, especially if your employment required you to work 6 days a week and 10 - 11 hour days as so many of the current crop of marshals do. A day off work now costs them and competitors need to realise and appreciate that.

Yes entry fees are getting higher everyday but race ones are a damn side less than rally ones. It is called user pays and unfortunately our general sport is now having to pay for many items that we used to get as donations or support from the community.

Today the community want the sport to pay for bringing the sport to them.

I too wish that sport wise things could be as they used to be but those days are gone and we will never see them again. What we all need to do is to ensure that the sport has a future in New Zealand and that we can see more people enjoying the sport as much as we all have

Hi Carl,

Sought of surprised at your answer to Trevor, not like you to be so aggressive, and frankly speaking no need for it either. Most of us know what Trevor is saying, and its far from a "joke" as you dismissively suggest. You of all people should know that he is not talking about unpaid volunteers, but rather the officers of MSNZ paid or not.

There is no question that those same officers screwed the scrum in order to keep the status quo under the new constitution. Just as moving the deck chairs around on the Titanic would not have saved it, nor will the cosy arrangement that the present executives management committee put in place save MSNZ as we know it today.

[Trevor NZ]

Originally Posted by Trevor NZ

Thank you Mark.


Ode to Brevity.

Squirt, squirt, squirt , continue all those in motor sport,
Fifty years have rolled by with still naught to report.
Loose cannons run amuck unchecked on an oily deck.
She’s right call all those caught tightly by the neck.
Wind becomes supercharged and all the squirt's blown back,
Without correcting lock there is spinout on the track.

Quickly reverse lock, the viscous spin must be corrected,
it is clear that a proper racing line has been long neglected.
Conjecture, complaining and squirting forth lots of hot air,
has done no more than leave a slipstream of despair.
A controlled drift is called for rather than a slide towards disaster,
without a change of line this is approached faster and faster.

Panic the braking point has has now been allowed to pass,
the mugwump bird is in full flight and close to its ----.
Where are those with the nuts to hold on the wobbly wheels?
The nuts on hand surely are within bodies down at the heels.
Nuts must be quickly found and applied to the correct torque,
rather than wither and dither and still more talk.

QED

Trevor Sheffield

SM Try this for a "Joke" LOL --- LOL

The urinating into the wind never ends. Refer pages 148 and onwards. Many are standing in the back spray,

[Southern Man]

Originally Posted by Mark Petch

Hi Carl,

not like you to be so aggressive.

Jeez Mark, Have you forgotten what I was like as a much younger person, there are still some Officials, Marshals & fellow competitors around who think that I was like a Pit Bull terrier with an attitude.

[Trevor NZ]

FAQ:-

Within a sports based environment, officials have massaged their egos playing games within the commercial sector, improperly using and risking funds unwittingly provided by shareholders who have no direct rights of control.