[LM24 Race] 2017 Le Mans 24 Hours Race Thread

[Velociraptor]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

They didn't need to be quicker - particularly in this heat. 7 was very comfortable until it hit the problem.

It's still interesting, because I was expecting Toyotas to vanish into distance. But it didn't happen. Will be interested to see what happend.
They didn't even come close to the race lap record of Loterree from 2015, which I thought might be broken. Probably the heat.

[Peter Mallett]

I felt the Porsches were keeping their powder dry in qualifying. They just needed to be quick enough to make the Toyotas break. I posted the same thoughts in Twitter last night.
Typical Le Mans tactic when you know you can't be there on outright speed.

[S griffin]

Thanks to Quest and ITV4 for showing bits, so we could watch the great race in parts

Toyota all that way for revenge and this time they break a lot sooner than the last lap! Shame for everyone, but that just shows how much more important reliability is over speed

Of course the race looked us good as over before 10:00 UK time and was an anti-climax, but then the #1 broke down which really threw a spanner in the works with a LMP2 leading. In the end though the #2 Porsche was too fast and not far enough behind for it, but still well done to Chan's team, they picked up the pieces and were comfortably in front of the other LMP2 cars. And the #2 Porsche showed that anything can be recovered in a 24hr race. Seeing them carve their way to the lead made up for the lack of competition in the top class

Barrichello I thought did alright in his first Le Mans and his teammate Lammers, how good is it to see him still going strong at 60.

And the Aston-Corvette battle in GTE, that certainly kept going to the end.

So yeah that's it for another 12 months, enjoyed it while it lasted

[RWill2073]

Originally Posted by Barry in IN

Wow. Just wow.

Excellent first post! What a finish for a race that was over 14 hours earlier! What's with these last lap failures? The probability of lasting 23 hour and 56 minutes only to then fail has to be miniscule. Two years in a row now. Wow is right. A great, proper endurance race.

[RWill2073]

Originally Posted by TRspitfirefan

So happy to see the Porsche claim the victory. Nothing against the LMP2 teams, but I really dislike the new spec of LMPC cars. If the ruleset were more open, I'd have been thrilled to see a P2 car win, but tightly controlled spec prototypes don't belong at Lemans.

That's partly why I wanted one to win. Make an embarrassment for the aco that their expensive p1s were all beaten by a spec class. They deserved the embarrassment for making it impossible to run a reasonably costing car in p1. Also, the humor in a regular internal combustion engine beating all the high tech hybrids even after the non hybrids were all but gone from the top class would have been rich too.

[Coldasice]

Well can't say I'm surprised by the result in LMP1. It is just heart-wrenching and heart breaking obviously for the failures of Toyota, but not surprised.

Overall a Porsche wins, and Toyota loses in LMP1. So kind of an expected outcome, despite what was seen at practices.

Reliability was poor for both Porsche and Toyota this year in LMP1. The heat seems to have contributed to that.

I agree with several other posters here, and every year this continually confirms my observations of Toyota ever since they entered the current WEC. It's not so much a curse, as it is a failure of organization, structure, and strategy.

Like some of you have already mentioned, the key between winning and losing this year in LMP1 was serviceability. Porsche like they usually do, had an easily serviceable car. No matter what class or series Porsche competes in, they usually have an easily serviceable car. Porsche are the grandmasters of endurance racing, and this is one reason why. So the fact that the Porsche was easily serviceable and the Toyota was not, was why the #2 car won and the #8 Toyota wasn't even close.

I agree that this was classic Le Mans. As the old saying goes, to finish first...you first have to finish.

Audi like Porsche was also well-known for having easily serviceable cars. You can never rely on perfect reliability, that is why serviceability of the car is such a key parameter for Le Mans.

So ultimately, Toyota themselves are to blame for yet another failed year at Le Mans.

It's becoming a bit of a tired record, but if Toyota TRULY wants to win, they need to take a good, long hard look in the mirror and top to bottom reassess and ultimately change their team organizationally, structurally, strategically. Toyota couldn't buy a win in F1, and now they can't buy a win in Le Mans. Toyota has participated in Le Mans so many times now...and still can't get a win. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Toyota's famous TS020s in the 1990s were very fragile cars. Fast, but very fragile. Not the most serviceable cars either. Moving forward now, in the WEC last few years Toyota cars have been fragile as well. Several years they have been fast in the WEC, with an exception year, but they have also consistently been fragile, and not the most serviceable either.

What I have to criticize most is Toyota's slight arrogance in some of their PR stuff this year. In one of their articles, Toyota claimed they had done "everything they can" for Le Mans this year. Obviously, clearly, they did not do everything they could. They did not test in extreme heat conditions. Also seemingly, it appears they did not test for worst-case extreme reliability conditions, like driving at safety car or pit lane speeds in high heat with a field of other cars, which poses serious cooling problems. Obviously they couldn't test exactly these conditions, but they could have tested in similar conditions. Simply running 30 hour endurance tests in winter in colder temperatures at some European tracks is not enough. Also as already mentioned, they did not make an easily serviceable car. After all these years of Le Mans participation, has Toyota seriously not understood the importance of serviceability? The arrogance and ignorance is a bit bewildering.

The Germans definitely know what it takes to win Le Mans, and they have proven that over the years.

The odd thing is that Toyota knows how to win other endurance races, and they have wins in other endurance races...but not Le Mans.

[chunder]

The thing is

The Toyota WEC team is largely German, and surely they have an input into a lot of the car?

Most of them are either ex F1 or WRC mechanics and in WRC especially serviceability is even more important than in WEC and 24 hour racing.

And it strikes me that they only won or dominated in the category that the main man was involved in, Ove was a rally man through and through and they had everything right there to win. Even with the wrong cars, he never wanted Celica's, yet they still won, until they cheated and were rightly castigated,.

I think you can blame the ridiculous heat for a lot of the issues with the P1 cars, that is the consensus.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Image attached. Eurosport Player has a TV Schedule button in the top right. Click that. The Le Mans channel is the 5th one in the list

ES1
ES2
LM Onboard
LM Pit Lane
LM feed (no commentators or ad breaks)
SBK
Tennis

This is how they've done it for a few years. Might be different on different devices. This is chrome on a PC.

Thanks for that.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by chunder

The thing is

The Toyota WEC team is largely German, and surely they have an input into a lot of the car?

Most of them are either ex F1 or WRC mechanics and in WRC especially serviceability is even more important than in WEC and 24 hour racing.

And it strikes me that they only won or dominated in the category that the main man was involved in, Ove was a rally man through and through and they had everything right there to win. Even with the wrong cars, he never wanted Celica's, yet they still won, until they cheated and were rightly castigated,.

I think you can blame the ridiculous heat for a lot of the issues with the P1 cars, that is the consensus.

Serviceability has been the downfall of Toyota at Le Mans constantly though, and this one was very much about that. The #8 was faster than the #2, but lost so much time fixing the same issue that it could not come back from it. In theory you're right, having the WRC guys involved is a good thing in that regard, but it isn't working out like that. Porsche had access to the MGU from the front and below the car. Toyota had to take the windscreen and dashboard out and had a mechanic upside down in the car. They may have input, but it certainly didn't make a difference today.

Rally guys are great, but I'm not sure I'd want the F1 staff involved in my program. That was an insane amount of money to achive absolutely nothing. They even sacked Panis and McNish after one year, because they couldn't understand how they could be so slow. Turned out it was the car.

--

#1 Engine failure - retirement
#2 MGU failure - swapped and continued
#7 Clutch failure - retirement
#8 MGU failure - swapped and continued
#9 Driver failure - retirement

Both Porsche and Toyota suffered 1 mechanical failure each, and 1 hybrid failure. Porsche dealt with the hybrid failure much better than Toyota. Their third bullet was driver error.

[Creep89]

Motorsport Total reports something really weird. Apparently a "fake" marshal went to the pit lane, gave the #7 a thumbs up to continue. The #7 accelerated, then the box told him to stop. But the car already changed from pitlane to track mode and the driver had to use the clutch several times to get away. Unfortunately, the clutch isn't meant to be used for starting but for speeds > 80 kph. So that's what killed the clutch of #7 car.

http://www.motorsport-total.com/wec/...-17061805.html

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Creep89

Motorsport Total reports something really weird. Apparently a "fake" marshal went to the pit lane, gave the #7 a thumbs up to continue. The #7 accelerated, then the box told him to stop. But the car already changed from pitlane to track mode and the driver had to use the clutch several times to get away. Unfortunately, the clutch isn't meant to be used for starting but for speeds > 80 kph. So that's what killed the clutch of #7 car.

http://www.motorsport-total.com/wec/...-17061805.html

That sounds...odd. The cars are controlled by lights at the end of the pit lane. Why would be drive off if the light is still red? And surely the car is still in the pit lane? Otherwise he's exited under a red light.

[OmerRS]

What if Toyota decided to just disable and disconnect the front drive unit instead of repairing it, maybe they had enough pace to stay in front of Lmp2 field and get the win.

I believe Porsche did similar thing last year and still quicker than the private Lmp1 cars.

[Creep89]

Article says the drivers are trained to respect the actions of track marshals first

[Akrapovic]

I think I'd need some video evidence of this fake marshal. That's an outlandish claim that one.

Also, the car has to be able to use the clutch at low speed or stopped - how does it rejoin after a spin or incident on track? If it really can't cope with a standing start then that's a horrendous engineering oversight as it means you'll break the clutch if you stop the car.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by OmerRS

What if Toyota decided to just disable and disconnect the front drive unit instead of repairing it, maybe they had enough pace to stay in front of Lmp2 field and get the win.

I believe Porsche did similar thing last year and still quicker than the private Lmp1 cars.

Did they change the rules to make it so the systems installed must work and disabling the hybrid would DQ the car?

[Coldasice]

Originally Posted by chunder

The thing is

The Toyota WEC team is largely German, and surely they have an input into a lot of the car?

Most of them are either ex F1 or WRC mechanics and in WRC especially serviceability is even more important than in WEC and 24 hour racing.

And it strikes me that they only won or dominated in the category that the main man was involved in, Ove was a rally man through and through and they had everything right there to win. Even with the wrong cars, he never wanted Celica's, yet they still won, until they cheated and were rightly castigated,.

I think you can blame the ridiculous heat for a lot of the issues with the P1 cars, that is the consensus.

As Akrapovic mentioned, doesn't seem like it matters much does it, even if they have WRC guys?

TMG was originally founded with ex-Le Mans guys, and a bit of ex-WRC guys here and there. But then Toyota went on a hiring spree and hired various F1 people for their F1 program. A lot of key people in TMG currently are actually ex-F1 people.

Also I think many of the ex-WRC guys are actually helping with the WRC team now. Tommi Makinen runs the WRC team currently, and they key thing there is that I have heard Tommi Makinen agreed to run the team only in return for some strong authority and autonomy. Apparently Makinen reduced TMG's role and responsibility in the WRC program. Rumor is Makinen mainly didn't want any of the ex-F1 guys involved with the current WRC program. TMG couldn't get a single win in F1. Now together with the other Toyota team members, as part of Gazoo Racing, TMG can't seem to help achieve a Le Mans win either.

To be brutally honest, perhaps the TMG staff are part of the problem? Yes they have *some* Germans, but they also have a diverse array of other Europeans. Reading Toyota's PR stuff, they say they have a diverse staff pretty much just for the sake of it. Not necessarily because those staff members are the best of the best in their positions.

It's similar to Toyota's driver situation. Due to Japanese pride, patriotism, etc they must always have some Japanese drivers on the team. Instead of always trying to get the best of the best drivers on the team, they instead have a quota they must fill to have some Japanese guys on the team.

I'm nowhere near an expert, but just as a third party observer, I certainly would not want the F1 guys to be part of an endurance team. Look at the TS050 this year. It's fast, fragile, and hard to service. It's built more like a sprint car or F1 car than a true endurance car.

[Coldasice]

Originally Posted by Creep89

Motorsport Total reports something really weird. Apparently a "fake" marshal went to the pit lane, gave the #7 a thumbs up to continue. The #7 accelerated, then the box told him to stop. But the car already changed from pitlane to track mode and the driver had to use the clutch several times to get away. Unfortunately, the clutch isn't meant to be used for starting but for speeds > 80 kph. So that's what killed the clutch of #7 car.

http://www.motorsport-total.com/wec/...-17061805.html

What? A "fake" marshal? How is that even possible at Le Mans? This sounds certainly outlandish.

[Articus]

Originally Posted by Creep89

Motorsport Total reports something really weird. Apparently a "fake" marshal went to the pit lane, gave the #7 a thumbs up to continue. The #7 accelerated, then the box told him to stop. But the car already changed from pitlane to track mode and the driver had to use the clutch several times to get away. Unfortunately, the clutch isn't meant to be used for starting but for speeds > 80 kph. So that's what killed the clutch of #7 car.

http://www.motorsport-total.com/wec/...-17061805.html

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

That sounds...odd. The cars are controlled by lights at the end of the pit lane. Why would be drive off if the light is still red? And surely the car is still in the pit lane? Otherwise he's exited under a red light.

Yes I recall this, it was under the first safety car. The 7 car was sitting at the end of the pits and someone came in front of the Toyota and the Fox commentators thought it was one of the Toyota drivers standing at the end of pitlane (which wouldn't have made any sense). Then they thought it was a driver from another team (which still didn't make any sense). The individual didn't appear to be in the correct uniform, but seemed like a drivers uniform. You can probably find it on the official replay.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I think I'd need some video evidence of this fake marshal. That's an outlandish claim that one.

Also, the car has to be able to use the clutch at low speed or stopped - how does it rejoin after a spin or incident on track? If it really can't cope with a standing start then that's a horrendous engineering oversight as it means you'll break the clutch if you stop the car.

Because the electric system is what propels them from a stop, reading the translation says the clutch is used to engage the ICE after the electric gets the car moving.

I'm thinking fake maybe a mistranslation/communication, not fake but someone the driver mistook to be a marshal who signaled the driver to go so they could cross maybe? But seems like someone I wouldn't pay attention to if the red light was still on for the SC train to pass

[Akrapovic]

Also, the clutch has to be able to do a standing start. If the car spins, are they saying it can't be recovered? What if it spins on the final corner and has no hybrid left for the lap? Or the hybrid system dies? Does the car simply never get recovered? If the clutch is so bad it cannot survive a standing start then that's a horrendous engineering design and oversight, and was always going to bite them massively.

But that would also tie in well with the poor serviceability of the car.

Trying to find a video of this fake marshal now.

[Creep89]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yhVJoScJRw

9h 44min 40s

Setting timestamp doesn't work here with iOS (thanks to Peter_B from GT-Eins Forum for posting the video).

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Because the electric system is what propels them from a stop, reading the translation says the clutch is used to engage the ICE after the electric gets the car moving.

Yeah, but it also says it doesn't do that in track mode. So if the car spins, the hybrid system has a problem, or they run out of electrical power, the car is as good as junk and needs retired? That doesn't seem right.

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I think I'd need some video evidence of this fake marshal. That's an outlandish claim that one.

Also, the car has to be able to use the clutch at low speed or stopped - how does it rejoin after a spin or incident on track? If it really can't cope with a standing start then that's a horrendous engineering oversight as it means you'll break the clutch if you stop the car.

The WEC feed did make a big deal of the #7 being let go before the other cars in the pit queue. I didn't pay much attention at the time and put it down to Moody being his usual on-the-ball self, but this would explain what he & Haven were puzzled about. It won't be hard to find it on the replay so I'll check when the broadcast is uploaded.

Edit - Creep89 has done it already. That definitely happened, and that's not a marshal's uniform. I'd agree with the commentators - that looks like a G-Drive crew member.

[Coldasice]

Very strange situation there. Who was that G-Drive guy? Why was he allowed to jump out like that?

Regardless, I agree with Akrapovic. If the clutch is so fragile on the TS050 that in multiple engagements/disengagements it broke, that is horrible engineering.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Creep89

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yhVJoScJRw

9h 44min 40s

Setting timestamp doesn't work here with iOS (thanks to Peter_B from GT-Eins Forum for posting the video).

Brilliantly found!

Don't think that was a G-Drive driver.