Future Grands Prix?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by S griffin

So now we have a full calendar. Good to have Turkey back. A modern classic, that lost part of the appeal by a lack of crowd, but that won’t be a problem this time.

Just a shame after all those interesting circuits we have to finish with two GPs at the underwhelming Bahrain and then the finale at the even blander Abu Dhabi

Not quite, as there should be 22 races. However I think 17 is fine and there used to be 17 races up until and including 2002. Does F1 really need 22 races, considering some of the venues produce lack lustre racing?

[TheMightyM]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Does F1 really need 22 races, considering some of the venues produce lack lustre racing?

Does F1 really need 22 races? No. Are F1's finances better if there are 22 races? Yes.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by TheMightyM

Does F1 really need 22 races? No. Are F1's finances better if there are 22 races? Yes.

F1 was doing perfectly ok when they had 17 races. Bernie expanded the calendar because he knew some countries would jump at the chance of being part of the exclusive F1 Club and pay the exorbitant sanctioning fee for the privilege.

As for the sanctioning fee, it's been argued that it is not the best business model. We saw the French GP disappear from the calendar because of the costs and they invented the Grand Prix racing. We've also seen the Malaysian GP go and races in India and S. Korea disappear as quickly as they appeared on the calendar.

[S griffin]

Exactly, the calendar should have quality, not quantity. We’re missing a few good venues of the calendar due to circumstance(Australia, Monaco and Canada to name but 3) and thankfully they’ve been replaced by quality venues and/or circuits. That is more important to me than others than having a big calendar expansion

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

I attended the first race in 2005. It was interesting to note the "newness". The view from the top of the main stand was pretty good.

Time flies. It’s now been longer off the calendar than it was on it!

[chunterer]

Reckon the next brand new Tilkedrome shoukd use Istanbul Park as the template! That and Sepang are way better than his other efforts.

[S griffin]

It helped that Istanbul was designed the wrong way. Originally was supposed to be clockwise, until they realised it would be much better anti clockwise

[S griffin]

We are going to use the outer layout at Bahrain. All fair for trying something new, but I doubt we’re doing more than polishing a t***. And with such a short lap, good luck finding a clear lap in qualifying

[chillibowl]

we might get some mix up in quali then and perhaps the Ferrari disadvantage wont be as pronounced on a shorter track.

Maybe naively im looking forward to Monza and now, at least a bit more, this Bahrain config.

[S griffin]

I guess with so many exciting circuits in Europe, Bahrain felt it had to do something to compete with that. But I doubt it will compare to circuits like Imola, Mugello, Algarve and Istanbul. Although hopefully we can have a bit of excitement before we have to endure the season ending drone that is Abu Dhabi

Just have to hope we see a return to the likes of Monaco, Suzuka, Australia, Canada and Interlagos in 2021

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I guess with so many exciting circuits in Europe, Bahrain felt it had to do something to compete with that. But I doubt it will compare to circuits like Imola, Mugello, Algarve and Istanbul. Although hopefully we can have a bit of excitement before we have to endure the season ending drone that is Abu Dhabi

Just have to hope we see a return to the likes of Monaco, Suzuka, Australia, Canada and Interlagos in 2021

In this article, Ross Brawn explains why the decision to race on the outer circuit was made.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/b...aign=widget-22

[S griffin]

We’ll have to take his word for it, Bahrain needs to do something to improve it’s standing

Anyway, Mugello is set to be the first race with fans

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by Greem

I'm definitely up for something new, and if it's 90+ sub 1 minute laps, why not?

IndyCar has sub-minute and sub-3km laps at St Pete, Toronto and Portland. F1 will do fine.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

we might get some mix up in quali then and perhaps the Ferrari disadvantage wont be as pronounced on a shorter track.

Hm it may be shorter but it’s basically 4 straights and a wiggly bit.

Stick a DRS zone on each straight and enjoy the fun! I expect Renault to be up front and Ferrari a lap down :-p

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

Stick a DRS zone on each straight and enjoy the fun! I expect Renault to be up front and Ferrari a lap down :-p

i actually do think that will be fun particularly for the midfield.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

Hm it may be shorter but it’s basically 4 straights and a wiggly bit.

Stick a DRS zone on each straight and enjoy the fun! I expect Renault to be up front and Ferrari a lap down :-p

I tend to think this is an experiment, so why not do as you suggest? If there is a season/time to try different things, this is it.

Richard

[S griffin]

If Spa is anything to go by, DRS might be overkill

[chillibowl]

it is difficult to ascertain how much of an advantage DRS gives the following driver but when it comes to cases of two drivers driving the same equally healthy cars on the same tire compound/strategy one presumes the ability to get within the DRS zones comes primarily from driver skill.

that Bottas has regularly failed to get into his team mates DRS zone to effect a pass to me suggests that DRS works as intended (to help a car overcome the inherent aero stability/dirty air issues) while still respecting the need for driver skill to get into the zone in the first place.

of course i am assuming that LH is the better driver...which for reasons that still baffle is not a universally agreed upon fact.

obviously if the following driver has a car/tire advantage then they can get by a little more quickly...which again is the point of DRS right? rather. it should not be so hard for a faster car to get through hence the need for DRS in the first place.

that feels very wordy, but imo the DRS zone worked as intended at Spa.

Albon taking a few too many laps to get past Gastly (i think thats who it was) was curious in that we still cannot accurately gauge who is the better driver between the two where as Ocon needing it to get past Albon makes me think Ocon is below both of them.

without DRS they all would have followed each other hoping the driver infront had to pit, made a mistake, or had an accident....for some that is a more pure form of racing and at one time i probably would have agreed with that but now after several years of DRS i actually do think it helps move the races along.

i guess maybe i have just normalized it.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

it
Albon taking a few too many laps to get past Gastly (i think thats who it was) was curious in that we still cannot accurately gauge who is the better driver between the two where as Ocon needing it to get past Albon makes me think Ocon is below both of them.

I think it was a clear case of 2 similar cars with the same engine and one that is more user friendly than the other for those specific drivers.

With the Ocon pass, it was a case of the wrong compoubd tyres also being knackered!

[Adam43]

I too don’t think any conclusions can be made from that. As you point out there are enough differences. Including a driver changing an approach when under pressure depending on who it is and also learning from previous situations.

[S griffin]

And that is the key to good racing, variables. Put more of those in and the results will speak for themselves. No need for any aids like DRS, overtaking should have skill in it too. Just look at Ricciardo, he can overtake anywhere

[chillibowl]

DanRic is certainly the king of the late breakers (although we saw Albon with a fantastic late break so maybe the RB car has something to do with it?) but is that the same as overtaking skill?

arguably though, the late breaking is best used at the end of long straights into sharp slow corners...so basically the main feature of the tilke dromes and/or the ability to get close enough to late brake was made possible by DRS.

but overall i do agree, in order to see more overtaking we need more variables...faster cars out of order, tire changes and refueling, reduction in pit to car or pit to data centre communications, a greater variety of track layouts, and of course DRS.

but then again the effectiveness of any of these variables in combination may not yield the intended results so more experimentation is needed to sort out what works and what doesnt.

but certainly the only other way to see more overtakes, especially those that are purely down to driver skill, would be to make all the cars the same and then that wouldnt be F1.

short of an entirely new aero formula, if we want teams to build bespoke cars then 'artificial' mechanisms will be needed to upset the reality of lining up the cars from fastest to slowest imo.

[S griffin]

Right let’s get one thing straight. F1 is supposed to be about the best drivers and teams getting the job done. By all means make it so cars have opportunities to race each other closely, but overtaking should never be forced.

Overtaking should be a skill, not a gift. Put it this way, there are reasons why the likes of Messi and Ronaldo always seem to end up with the most goals and it’s why people enjoy watching them play. Now it wouldn’t be the same if anybody could score a goal like that would it? We used to enjoy watching the likes of Mansell and Montoya for the overtaking moves they could pull off. Now it’s just not the same

For me DRS did to take overtaking what traction control did for throttle control. It took away the skill. And we do not need more pitstops and we definitely do not need refuelling. Let the cars run whatever tyre they want and watch the race evolve. We don’t need overtaking on every lap.

The racing will hopefully be a lot better with the 2022 cars and proof we don’t need artifical means for good racing. Just remember the drivers do it because they enjoy it and as much as they probably appreciate fan support, it’s not the main reason they do it.

At the end of the day F1 should be about skill and there are plenty of good stories from the past about exciting racing and some very impressive drives that happened because of drivers doing their art. For me seeing a Force India on pole by merit was one example of that and you would lose some of that drama if you putting in reverse grids

So appreciate F1 for what it is and don’t feel entitled you should see action every minute. After all there are plenty of other series that can wet your appetite in that time

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by S griffin

...So appreciate F1 for what it is and don’t feel entitled you should see action every minute. After all there are plenty of other series that can wet your appetite in that time

with all due respect, i dont appreciate you saying this literally right after you say:

Originally Posted by S griffin

And that is the key to good racing, variables. Put more of those in and the results will speak for themselves....

again with all due respect, you are changing the goal posts in order to see more goals scored in your own favour.

but in the spirit of having a healthy discussion and i suppose i should have asked this of you first before suggesting any variables myself...but what variables were you suggesting?

[S griffin]

Let teams choose whatever tyre that suits them, rather than telling them, then you will see better racing.

And while I understand why people are against a tyre war, for me that could really see things mixed up from time to time.