The never ending Toyota return to Le Mans (LMP1) Saga

[tyronnezx]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

scenario that Toyota does not want to show their pace to the ACO/FIA because the TS030 has a big performance advantage

Funny that, because that was exactly what was playing on my mind when i heard about the accident. Only Toyota was really there. Also no photos of the crash. how can we possibly say the new aero's a failiure? Toyota may have Completed the test and used the crash as an excuse.

[gwyllion]

Yeah right. That is why they asked Alex Wurz to post pictures of an imaginary bike ride on twitter while in fact he was driving around in the car. And now Vasselon is lying to the internal press that they have to cancel all the planned tests in April, while in fact they will continue to test in secret

[Acid09]

I don't buy this. The car is brand new, the engine is new, the hybrid system is brand new.

What are the odds that their first LMP1 in 11 years is some kind of monster machine that outruns the Audis out of the box? Bare to none...especially since nobody knows how fast the E-Trons will be...

The underfunded/management issues theory is much more likely. The way this is set up just calls for trouble sooner or later, there are too many parties involved in this project and from what I heard is that this is what rendered their F1 efforts unsuccessful as well.

Japan should have given TMG the budget and let them pull this off without interrupting them. But with bits and pieces coming from Japan, them having a say, suppliers chosen for political reasons (horrible, horrible decision), there so many pitfalls here.

Add in the fact that Japanese companies seem to constantly be afraid of their own shadows and rather don't do something instead of risking failure, this project is bound to hit trouble on so many levels.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by NelisB

Do you know if they use a type of acid in the supercapacitors? That might have burned a hole in the carbon of monocoque?

According to Nisshinbo, the supplier of the supercapacitors, their solution is completely safe.

Safety of N's CAP

• No ignition even by forced nail penetration.
• No smoke, no ignition and no liquid leakage even forced by over charge.
• No amoke, no ignition and no liquid even forced by 10A continuos current test.

source: http://www.nisshinbo.co.jp/english/r_d/capacitor

If you are really into chemistry, you can find a scientific description of their ionic liquid in http://www.evs24.org/wevajournal/php...1/WEVA-019.pdf

[arakis]

Originally Posted by NelisB

Do you know if they use a type of acid in the supercapacitors? That might have burned a hole in the carbon of monocoque?

Capacitors use dialectics and nod acid to store energy (well more the electric fielD). Don't know if dialectics are acidic though... BTW paper, plastic, or any other insulator is also a dialectic...

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by arakis

Capacitors use dialectics and nod acid to store energy (well more the electric fielD). Don't know if dialectics are acidic though... BTW paper, plastic, or any other insulator is also a dialectic...

Maybe NelisB was thinking about electrolytic capacitors. Everybody who studied electronics, remembers the stories about smoking electrolytic capacitors if the polarity is reversed by accident

[TF110]

Toyota using DENSO is a no brainer, as they're partly owned by them. Saying that using Japanese parts is 'bad politics' is a load of crap, and in my eyes very hypocritical. Does Audi not use German parts suppliers? Does Audi not use Bosch? So what's the problem in Toyota using Japanese parts like Nisshinbo or Denso or Takata? Why is it a problem in Toyota's hands but not anyone else? Who says they're not under different management than TF1? Also Toyota Japan has had hands on the hybrid powertrain for nearly a decade, so why change hands now? This thread doesn't need to turn into guess work or naysayers of their philosophy. Lets just keep it simply about the TS030 and leave the political aspect of things aside?

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by TF110

Does Audi not use German parts suppliers? Does Audi not use Bosch? So what's the problem in Toyota using Japanese parts like Nisshinbo or Denso or Takata? Why is it a problem in Toyota's hands but not anyone else? Who says they're not under different management than TF1? Also Toyota Japan has had hands on the hybrid powertrain for nearly a decade, so why change hands now? This thread doesn't need to turn into guess work or naysayers of their philosophy. Lets just keep it simply about the TS030 and leave the political aspect of things aside?

Audi uses Bosch because they're the leading supplier in their field, not because they're German. Toyota openly admitted that some of the Japanese suppliers were chosen for political reasons...if they had chosen them because they offered the best product they could have just said so.

We can't leave the politics aside because these can make or breake the project, just like it did break their F1 efforts. Are the same people involved? Likely not... is the root problem still the same? Looks like it, simply too much parties involved.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by TF110

Does Audi not use German parts suppliers? Does Audi not use Bosch?

Except for the extensive partnership with Bosch, Audi does not have a huge preference for German partners/suppliers.

• Akrapovič (Slovenian): exhaust
• Brembo (Italian): brake calipers
• Bosch (German): electronics, injection system
• Castrol (English): lubrication
• Dallara (Italian): composites
• Dow (American): particulate filter
• Gerg/KLK Motorsport (German): composites
• Hitco (American): carbon brake disc
• Honeywell Garrett (American): turbo
• ITK Engineering (German): consulting for hybrid system
• Mahle (German): pistons
• Michelin (French): tyres
• Öhlins (Swedish): dampers
• OZ (Italian): rims
• Xtrac (English): gearbox
• William Hybrid Power (English): flywheel
• ZF Sachs (German): clutch

Like Acid09 says, Audi tends to select the best suppliers irrespectively from their nationality.

[chernaudi]

As to what comes from where, Bosch and Mahle are German companies, but XTrac (gearbox/differential internals) is British, Garrett (turbocharger) is American and Akrapovic (exhaust system) is Slovenian. Gwyllion has provided an even extensive list of suppliers, and relatively few are German.

I don't think that we can say that the Audi R18 is a "pure" German machine, and we can't call the TS030 out as being any "less" Japanese--most of the car is made in Germany at TMG's HQ in Cologne. Only the engine and most of the hybrid system parts come from Japan. And of course Denso will be involved--Toyota is Denso's largest shareholder.

It should be noted that both Audi and Toyota use Michelin tires, so no German or Japanese connection there. Foreign contractors or suppliers abound--there's been no "pure" all-British built fighter since the English Electric Lighting. Since then, most British aircraft were built in partnership between British Aerospace and someone else, almost always a foreign partner. And even some American jet aircraft used the Wright J65 engine, a license build Armstrong Siddely Sapphire, namely experimental versions of the F-104 and the Martin B-57--itself having foreign origins, being a modified English Electric Canberra. And even during WWII, the Packard V-1650 that powered most P-51 Mustangs was a license built Rolls-Royce Merlin, and RR and SU built their own version of the Bendex-Stromburg "zero-G" carbs for the Merlin 60 series and later engines. International partnerships abounded then, and even more now. It's all about choosing whoever Audi and Toyota feel can do the best job for them for the right price.

Nothing anymore is "pure" anything, and I don't think that even though there may be nepotistic connections between Denso and Toyota (Toyota's ownership of Denso), I don't think that it has anything to do with nationalism. In all, partnerships are usually formed due to the belief that they can do the best job for their customer.

[Dead-Eye]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Like Acid09 says, Audi tends to select the best suppliers irrespectively from their nationality.

Especially true since both Mahle and Bosch were also used by Peugeot.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by TF110

Toyota using DENSO is a no brainer, as they're partly owned by them. Saying that using Japanese parts is 'bad politics' is a load of crap, and in my eyes very hypocritical.

Denso is not a bad choice for the electronics and the rear electric motor.

However, Bosch seems to be the only supplier for gasoline direct injection system for motorsport (Audi R8, Porsche RS Spyder, Corvette GT1, Aston Martin GT1/LMP1, Ferrari 458, Chevrolet WTCC/Nissan DeltaWing, BMW WTCC/Mini WRC, ....).

This could mean that the TS030 engine might not be equiped with direct injection.

[Articus]

And the R18 Monocoque is Italian

[TF110]

I don't know the differences in racing engines and street engines, but Toyota has had direct injection in their street car engines since 1998.

[kurski]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Nothing anymore is "pure" anything, and I don't think that even though there may be nepotistic connections between Denso and Toyota (Toyota's ownership of Denso), I don't think that it has anything to do with nationalism. In all, partnerships are usually formed due to the belief that they can do the best job for their customer.

I was initially surprised that Toyota's main sponsor was/not Panasonic, but the Denso is certainly more familiar with Japanese series.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by TF110

I don't know the differences in racing engines and street engines, but Toyota has had direct injection in their street car engines since 1998.

Gasoline direct injection in motorsport can be challenging because of much high revs and higher flow rate than in production cars.

Porsche considered their direct injection RS Spyder engine a big accomplishment:

"After reaching a very high level with the previous engine we raced, we had to put considerable efforts into the development of the direct fuel injection unit in order to significantly improve performance and efficiency," says Thomas Laudenbach, Head of Motorsport Development/Power Train. "In order to achieve revs of up to 11,000 with DFI technology it meant stepping into totally new territory."

During the design and development of the engine, synergies of product areas and motorsport departments were utilized to a large extent.

"Right from the beginning there was a lively exchange," reminisces Thomas Laudenbach. "We had already recognized the advantages of this technology at the start of the RS Spyder project and adapted them to the very special requirements of motorsport, always in close consultation with our colleagues in the standard development department. The methods and insights we obtained from our co-operation are of considerable value for future development projects involving DFI technology."

source: http://press.porsche.com/motorsport/...ase.php?id=632

Roger Griffiths, technical director of HPD, said the following about their new Indycar engine in the latest edition of PWM magazine:

"If we had gone from conventional racing gasoline to E85, it probably would have been more challenging. Direct injection, from the outset, was a challenge because nobody had done it in a high-speed engine," admits Griffiths, noting that Porsche’s LMP2’s V8 ran at just over 10,000rpm. "We’re running to 12,000rpm. With E85, you have quite a high flow rate required for the horsepower you’re producing. With those engine speeds, you have a very small window to inject the fuel."

source: http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/...9#/9cb4d8f9/10

[gwyllion]

Some people have suggested that Toyota's Le Mans programme might have a short life span and that they will leave once they have won the race.

For what it is worth, since last month TMG has an open vacancy for a (senior) test engineer rally car development.

Of course TMG also made a Lexus GTE car, but that programme is dead.

[gwyllion]

I found a bit more on the TMG rally programme that is under development.

A spokesman from TMG said: “We’re leaning towards an S2000-style of car which would be available for customers first. This is a development project, but it’s very early days - the engine only fired up for the first time a few weeks ago - at the very earliest, a car won’t be available until next year. Obviously, this being a Global Race Engine, it could go in any car, but the Yaris seems to make sense.”

Toyota is currently working on an FIA World Endurance Championship entry, but the spokesman admitted rallying was likely to feature in the firm’s medium-term future.

“Medium to longer-term there is a degree of logic in the WRC,” he said. “We have been there [the WRC] and this is a step back into rallying.”

source: http://www.wrc.com/news/toyota-linke...try/?fid=16473

[Simmi]

Could be a decent money-spinner for them I suppose. It's not a fully-fledged WRC return so you would hope they could continue with both, as they did with great success in terms of their competitiveness in '98/'99.

[TF110]

I read about this on another automotive site. Sounds interesting. I wonder if the Hybrid project is more appealing to the corporate bosses though. Seeing as how Toyota sells more hybrids than anyone. And touting that with a possible winning car in the future could go a long way to making them even more popular. The WRC could be appealing as well with them running an 'everyday car' like the Yaris.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Simmi

Could be a decent money-spinner for them I suppose. It's not a fully-fledged WRC return so you would hope they could continue with both, as they did with great success in terms of their competitiveness in '98/'99.

The TMG spokesman talks about "customers first." That implies a full blown factory assault later and that would probably mean the end of their Le Mans program.

[Simmi]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

The TMG spokesman talks about "customers first." That implies a full blown factory assault later and that would probably mean the end of their Le Mans program.

Full-factory assault with an S2000 car? What would be the point of that unless they want to take on six-year-old cars in the IRC, if that series is even still around.

Maybe they'd upscale it to WRC spec further down the line but that's not what they said.

I doubt any manufacturers are in a rush to commit to the WRC given the state it's in. Time will tell.

[gwyllion]

The article on the WRC website states that "Automotive giant Toyota has built a Global Race Engine and is being linked to a possible return to the FIA World Rally Championship powered by Nokia." For me that means a possible factory WRC campaign.

[Bubak]

Originally Posted by Simmi

Full-factory assault with an S2000 car? What would be the point of that unless they want to take on six-year-old cars in the IRC, if that series is even still around.

Maybe they'd upscale it to WRC spec further down the line but that's not what they said.

I doubt any manufacturers are in a rush to commit to the WRC given the state it's in. Time will tell.

No no, there are cars like Mini Cooper SPC or Ford Fiesta RRC which can be convert from WRC spec. to S2000 spec. For example, S2000 version of WRC Mini with 1,6T engine have 30 mm restrictor, a smaller rear wing and brakes, different bumpers and side windows are made from glass and I think Mini is 50 kg heavier like S2000 cars with 2,0L engine (Proton, or only one best, Skoda Fabia S2000).

So, TMG version with 1,6T and restrictors (not only in engine) can be offer to customers team to regional competitions,Toyota only wants more costumers. Just like WRC article said: S2000-style of car, which would be available for customers first (with a option to have a factory team in WRC, so Global Race Engine, a 1,6T engine :-)) ) All in one. :-D

Dani Sordo will drive with S2000 spec. Mini SPC on Tour de Corse rally, part of IRC, against factory Skoda Motorsport (and Skoda UK) team (I think Juho Hanninen and Jan Kopecky will be there, so full team. ) ( http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/98739/ )

Also, there are few problems, convert from one spec. to convert other spec. cars (I originally wrote convertible cars, but it is confusing) are little bit slower: Fiesta RRC in WRC spec. compared to WRC full spec. , drivers are not happy. But this car was only a idea to have all in one car for customers. And Fiesta came after S2000 normal version with 2,0L engine and WRC version, it is more like experiment. But Mini Copper SPC was built only with 1,6L version, so made with this idea from first steps of this project. And, that is a problem right now, cars are slower than Skoda Fabia S2000. :-)

[gustavobamba]

Not so fast, they will compete this year and are already talking to withdraw! We are spoken of Toyota, we are not talking about such an AMR-ONE