Water Wetter - recommendations?

[Paul D]

Hi everyone - can some of you knowledgable types who've tried the stuff recommend a particular brand of water wetter that works? And what sort of results did you see in terms of temperature drop?

So far, I've seen ones from Redline, Millers Oils, DEI and one called R Racing Cool.

I'm sure there are others too, but any info you may have would be useful.

Thanks in advance.

[Al Weyman]

I have used the one called WaterWetter (oddly enough) and its a trade name of Redline and yes it does work. I was at the time running a marginal rad on the race car and it would blow the water out after the session but the addition of thw WaterWetter stopped this happening. It apparently works but stopping cavitation and allowing the coolant to reach all the nooks and crannies in the system and I have read its like washing machine rinse aid.

[Paul D]

Thanks for the info Al.

So that's one vote for Redline then!

Anyone else got anything to add?

[greenamex2]

I use Redline Water Wetter. It drops the temperature around 5 degree Celcius, not a lot but a bit of insurance for not much money/effort.

The 'technology' these products use is very simple so I'd guess that all the various competing products would be pretty similar.

[Notso Swift]

I also use Water Wetter on the other side of the world here it actually gets hot enough to use it

I believe it actually decreases surface tension and allows better heat transference, both from the motor to the water and the water to the radiator.
Further, because of this there is less localised boiling (like in the head) where air bubbles are formed, it helps. Those bubbles work a bit like an insualtor so in normal situations they are circular and the temp raises a lot quicker, with WW the temp is lower and it also holds on longer

Run it in a normal pressurised system, and as above you will drop about 5 degC, maybe a little more, on operating temp. Also, unless you need antifreeze then the best be its to run it with distilled water (WW is an anti-corrosive/conditioner)

[Tim Falce]

Dishwasher rinse aid, its cheaper.

[Paul D]

Tim - I've heard about the rinse-aid one, but I'm wondering if it may be an old wives' tale? Have you (or anyone else) actually tried this with any success?

I understand that water wetter is simply a surfactant (i.e. it reduces surface tension in the water), and that rinse-aid is also a surfactant. However, I think rinse-aid may also contain other things that you perhaps don't want in a car cooling system? I say that because, upon digging a bottle out from under the sink, I noticed that if you shake it up, it froths quite a lot - suggesting that maybe it has detergent type additives also, which is possible, considering its intended purpose. But my guess is that we really don't want something in our cars that froths up... do we?

As has already been said, bubbles in the cooling water are the enemy, so surely adding something that could cause more bubbles is bad? Anyone know? Of course, it may be that rinse-aid froths when it's neat, but maybe not once diluted - haven't tried that!

[haggispeed]

Originally Posted by Tim Falce

Dishwasher rinse aid, its cheaper.

Have you used it Tim ? does it work ??

[Tim Falce]

I have used rinse aid but can't comment on it's usefulness and I also used Redline water wetter and that didn't work any differently as I had other issues causing my overheating problems. Since sorting it the temp now doesn't go much above 85C even on the hottest day I've ever raced, 40C at Spa a couple of years ago and most times it'll sit around 75-80C.
Rinse aid certainly didn't cause any problems with the engine.

[JohnD]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

I have used the one called WaterWetter (oddly enough) and its a trade name of Redline and yes it does work. I was at the time running a marginal rad on the race car and it would blow the water out after the session but the addition of thw WaterWetter stopped this happening.

Sorry, Al, but my story is exactly the same with the opposite conclusion!
No difference at all!

JOhn

[Al Weyman]

I guess its all down to what the problem is originally.

[Stacy]

I used to use Water Wetter as well in various applications. It did lower the temperature, in one application 10o, in others almost nothing. Once I have a stable cooling system I'll probably use it again, but while I'm still playing around I got fed up draining it away.

I think the summary is that it does aid cooling, but it won't improve things well enough to cancel out any fundamental issue that's taking the temperature the wrong way. If you're marginal there will be more effective and more permanent answers.

Talking to an oil guy once he told me that having had it distilled down to it's solid components the Water Wetter turned out to be half a dishwasher tablet - rather than rinse aid - and it was an expensive half a tablet.

That was purely anecdotal - I have no idea whether he was an oil man that actually knew what he was talking about or not.

S.

[dtype38]

It might be helpful to explain the mechanism by which "water wetter" improves the cooling system. Then there's a better chance of deciding if it's going to help the cooling in a particular situation.

When water flows though tubes and heat exchangers, friction and attraction between molecules means the water actually touching all the surfaces is virtually stationary. The speed then rapidly picks up moving away from the surface into the main flow. This layer of water moving at reduced speed is called the boundary layer.

Where the flow is fast and turbulent the boundary layer is extremely thin, but where flow is slow and smooth it becomes thicker and becomes a hindrance to heat transfer. Water wetter acts to reduce the bonds which hold this layer together, thus reducing its thickness and allowing better heat transfer.

So, if the cooling problem is lack of thermal transfer from the engine block to the water or from the water to the inside surfaces of the radiator (usually because contaminated/corroded surfaces or low water flow) then water wetter will help noticeably. If the problem is that the cooling system is simply too small to handle the amount of heat to be rejected, then it may help a little by improving the efficiency of the radiator. But if the problem is poor flow distribution in the radiator, or it is on the air side of radiator because of lack of airflow/poor air distribution/air too hot, then it is unlikely to have a noticeable effect.

Hope this helps.

[brownslane]

Hi Guys. Some great points about surfactants.

My vote is for Red Line. I have used it for the past 15 years or so. I own a vintage restoration business and have been racing since the 70's. Water wetter is a great product when used to accomodate the marginal performance of cooling systems....here is an example; In an Xk-120/140 the radiator is really too small, too far back from the grill opening and the water pump bypass is too large. The result is a marginal cooling system, at least over here where today the temperature is 37 degrees C! Water wetter used in these cars make the difference between boiling over in traffic or getting home. In my experience you should expect a temp drop of between 5 and 8 degrees C.
The other use is in our race cars. I have been building and racing since the seventies....and I have used water wetter in all our cars since its introduction. Similar reduction in temps. Part of the concern is that glycol-based coolants are banned and water-only is the rule. The result is a reduced heat dissipation capability of our cooling systems. Red Line water wetter has worked great...the best value is honestly the corrosion inhibitors in the product; you don't get that in a rinse agent. I build Jaguar race engines. On a 3.8L with a steel shim head gasket, you will see significant corrosion in less than a month with just water. With water wetter, there is no appreciable corrosion evident in a couple of years use...

So, to summarize;

1.Use of a water wetter product should reduce temperatures within the cooling system, expect between 5 and 8 degrees C

2. A water wetter product will significantly reduce internal corrosion within all wetted areas

3. It is considered "legal" for use in race cars

4. I almost forgot! It works even better with a 50/50 mix of water and antifreeze!

5. Water wetter will reduce the potential "hot spots" in an engine where water alone can actually vaporize without some assistance.


As always, YMMV. There is no product you can dump out of a bottle that will correct design problems (like too small a rad, bad water pump, air locks in systems) etc.

Best, Tom

[dikko]

Excuse the hi-jack but what do people think about this Evans Waterless coolant?

It might be dear but it's permanent and all-encompassing it seems.

"Evans Waterless Coolants have a boiling point in excess of 180°C which is far greater than traditional 50/50 coolants which boil around 103°C (at atmospheric pressure). Evans Waterless Coolants also remove the threat of corrosion, electrolysis, liner pitting, water pump cavitation, poor fuel detonation and over heating."

[Chris Y]

Originally Posted by dikko

"Evans Waterless Coolants have a boiling point in excess of 180°C which is far greater than traditional 50/50 coolants which boil around 103°C (at atmospheric pressure). Evans Waterless Coolants also remove the threat of corrosion, electrolysis, liner pitting, water pump cavitation, poor fuel detonation and over heating."

They also repel tigers, and make you a better lover.

Pardon the cynicism But a coolant can't assist with proper fuel detonation unless the system is very compromised already. I can't stand companies that make outlandish claims based on worst-case scenarios.

[tristancliffe]

Originally Posted by dikko

Excuse the hi-jack but what do people think about this Evans Waterless coolant?

It might be dear but it's permanent and all-encompassing it seems.

"Evans Waterless Coolants have a boiling point in excess of 180°C which is far greater than traditional 50/50 coolants which boil around 103°C (at atmospheric pressure). Evans Waterless Coolants also remove the threat of corrosion, electrolysis, liner pitting, water pump cavitation, poor fuel detonation and over heating."

It is only permanent if you can get it all out when you split hoses or remove engines. With water, I tend to lose quite a bit - either on the floor, in rags, in radiators etc etc. Some expands out of the header tank overflow. So you have to keep topping it up and the elevated price.

That's not to say it isn't worth it - it might be, but I'm not going to be the guinea pig - just that it isn't permanent.

[dikko]

Apparently there is no pressure because it works so well. So no expansion.

[Tim Falce]

It sounds like snake oil to me

[tristancliffe]

It gets warm, so it will expand. And the filler cap spring will have to overcome to let it out, which causes a pressure build up.

I am happy to be corrected.

[JamieStewart9]

I recently did some fairly extensive research on the subject of coolants in motorcycle engines. Having previously been a fairly strong advocate of allowing a couple of capfuls of Water wetter (as a water pump lubricant), I ended up with a completely different point of view.

Have a read of the article and make your own mind up.

http://http://thundersportgb.com/dow...ature-articles

The one you want is near the bottom of the list entitled "Keeping your cool" I hope you find it interesting/useful.

[tristancliffe]

But your article doesn't mention water wetter???? It only talks about using plain deionised water without antifreeze, and doesn't really look at the whole picture.

[JamieStewart9]

Sorry, I forgot that version was actually slightly condensed to fit into the page allocation for one of our Race Day programmes.

Water Wetter is a surfacant and can actually work as described in the manufacturers literature, but it works better in large bore systems. The kind of diameters we are using (motorcycles wise anyway) it doesn't reach anything like the claimed figures. You might find it more efficient in larger bore car systems, I really couldn't say.

As for Evans waterless Coolant, all Evans products use stuff that is currently banned in motorcycle competition (both FIM & ACU) because although it is technically water free, it is liquid.

That said, I did do a little research on it when I was writing that article but the full technical specifications were very hard to accurately define. Their own site deliberately makes it hard for you to find its constituent make up and what is there is not strictly truthful to be honest.

A guy I spoke to in Japan about it (they use it in their Drift Cars a lot), sent me some chemical analasys of the latest stuff because it apparantly doesn't do metal flake paint a lot of good if you spill it over your nice shiny Mitsubishi EVos bodywork! As well as finding ethyl-alcohol deposits, one of the base parts was a derivative of freon (a commercial refrigerant), which in liquid form has an extremely low friction co-efficient - more slippery than 10w40 oil in fact. I'm not sure just how long it would be a hazard for though, as if it escaped onto the track it evapourates very quickly on its own at normal air temperatures. I wouldn't like to guess on its evapouration point or rate when mixed with other chemicals as in this instance though. You'd have to ask a specialist chemist in that field.

I don't believe the hype that it runs in a totally unpressurised state either, as everything expands when it gets hotter. Anyway, even running a theoretical zero pressure system doesn't stop the coolant getting onto the track if a hose fails. Which to be honest is the most common part to give up the ghost given its inherent fragility.

The elimination of hot spots is one of their other marketing claims, but they aren't such an issue in motorcycle engines now as they used to be either. Computerised engine design factors this in at the very first stages. In the old days when everything had to be made and then tested, it was common to find serious hot spots due to poor design, but flow rates, surface coatings, wall thicknesses and advanced fuel and lubricant properties mean it isn't on most manufacturers worry lists anymore. There are even some very clever ways of making some coolant cavaties into fast flow venturii to aid quicker/slower flow at the correct points in the system.

The Honda RCV Moto GP engine project at HRC have done a lot of research on gallery coatings too and if the mighty Honda are spending money on that, it means that there are advantages to be had somewhere down the line.

Interesting though, isn't it?

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by JamieStewart9

There are even some very clever ways of making some coolant cavaties into fast flow venturii to aid quicker/slower flow at the correct points in the system.

Like different sized waterway holes from front to back in a head gasket, been done from the year dot !

[zefarelly]

or just flow through the block and straight out the back of the head with no holes in the head gasket . . . moving Swiftly on.

I tried a load of posh juices, when the poroblem was really over tuning, or a mismatch of tuning areas, ie ignition/fuel/compression etc. Snake oil is not a tuning device.