Is JV the biggest hypocrite of them all ?

[z2252314]

Richards: Villeneuve has Hold on Spare Car

Sunday December 1st, 2002

British American Racing team boss David Richards confirmed that former World Champion Jacques Villeneuve will have the spare car set up for him in all races next season due to his contract.

Villeneuve, who's been with BAR since 1999, will be partnered next year by Jenson Button, who moves to BAR from Renault. Button, according to Richards, will have to wait a year before he gets equal rights over the spare car.

"It's part of an existing agreement," Richards told The Sun. "Jacques has always demanded exclusive use of the spare car. Jenson is aware of it and knows it's only for one year."

Why don't we never hear any bashing about this, while we constantly talk about Schumacher and his "team Ferrari". At least Rubens gets the spare from time to time. How come everyone is so hard on Michael while this obvious benefit for JV is never an issue? Can it be that Michael is more succesfull and people are more envious of him? Why does JV always critisize MS for his control over Ferrari?

let's get a few facts clear.

In the last two years, Panis had the spare car set up for him twice for raceday, and once on Saturday. That's out of 34 races.

In contrast and at the same period of time, Barrichello had the spare car set up for him for the entire weekend on ten Grands Prix.

Next.

Michael Schumacher does not have a contractual exclusive right to the spare car. This point has been raised late last year and both he and Barrichello said they have the same article in their contract which states the team will assign the spare car based on the World Championship needs.

Now, let's be fair here: in Ferrari's case, the spare car issue is pretty much a moot one. With their resources, they are able - and have done so before - to switch the spare car during a session; they're able to assemble the fourth chassis per need; etc. And, with their reliability, the spare car becomes less important. Nevertheless, on at least a couple of occasions having a choice before the race begins was good for Barrichello as it was good for Schumacher on a couple other occasions.

There is something almost perversive about a team having to ask a driver for permission to set up the spare car for his teammate. It's mind boggling, in fact. The situation of someone having to go to Jacques and get his blessings to allocate the spare car for Panis -- and then thanking him in the press release comments -- would have raised an uproar to the sky if the case involved Ferrari or Michael Schumacher.

Next.

Before you talk about benevolence and equal treatment and how BAR would never do what Ferrari did, you might wanna call up a certain Ricardo Zonta in Brazil. I think he will vastly disagree with you on that one.

This topic was taken from a forum on Atlas F1, I thought some of you guys here would like to discuss

[jase]

It doesn't say that Butten can't use the spare, only that JV has priority over it's use, so if they both need it, JB will have to wait until his car is repaired.

No biggie, all teams operate to this system, or have as far as there has only been ONE spare car allowed

[Glen]

Originally posted by jasongore
No biggie, all teams operate to this system, or have as far as there has only been ONE spare car allowed

Not so. Not at all. Williams rotate the spare, for example. Clearly they can pretty quickly adapt the T-car for whoever is the other driver that week, but that is totally different to a philosphy of always having the spare set one way. Even Ferrari's (stated) policy would have it that the spare car (and other resources) would be directed at whoever had the best chance of winning the championship - if that happened to be RB, then that's the way it would be.

[Gt_R]

I find jasongore's comment amusing.

For his information, MANY anti-schumachers were BLASTING MS for "dominating" the spare car...which is NOT the case. They insist they were fighting for a "fair-competition" cause, but of course NEGLECT what happens to others.

Perhaps it's just out of pure dislike for MS? I've brought out JV's "behavoir" of team priorities before but its always engulfed by MS-bashing.

So JV is the Mr Goody? My boots to him ya? He is hypocritical alright...afterall, who else actually dares to accuse MS of "ill-treating" teammates, "promoting" fair racing when in reality, he does otherwise?

[neilap]

Wait a minute! I addressed this topic on another post. I was against it. However, it was on a broader context. Craig Pollock is mostly to blame for this. He had a double agenda at BAR. I don't know if any driver in their right minds would turn down the opportunity to have this. Its up to the teams to say no.
Yes, it gives Jacques an unfair advantage. It does not mean JB cant race if his car breaks but instead it almost guarantees JV a better spot on the grid when disaster strikes.
I don't blame MS for anything its all up to RB and the team. If the team allows him to "get away with murder" its not his fault. They are in a competitive business and whatever they can do to gain an edge they will. Teams need to adopt better policies not the drivers.

[TeddyG]

Originally posted by z2252314

Michael Schumacher does not have a contractual exclusive right to the spare car. This point has been raised late last year and both he and Barrichello said they have the same article in their contract which states the team will assign the spare car based on the World Championship needs.

[B]


Hmmm doesn't this mean MS does have exclusive right to the spare car since Rubens is never given opportunity to FIGHT for the championship?!! We all know that Rubens isn't allowed to challenge Michael (until the championship is already decided) so we know that the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP NEEDS are always the NEEDS of Michael Shumacher. It is this UNFAIRNESS that is truely mind boggeling z2252314! I wouldn't give a damn if MS had the spare car set up for him on race day if the two were actually allowed to race each other (as the drivers are allowed to do at BAR)

I agree with Neilap in that this was Pollock's doing in trying to secure JV's superiority in the team and was up to the team to deny giving this right if they didn't want to. But let's be honest here...this contract was drawn up back in 99 when JV (a former World Champion) was paired with Zonta (an unexperienced rookie - who also sucked!). Who would you want to have spare car set up for if you were team manager???

Like DR said it is an existing term in JV's contract drawn up along time ago. The spare car is irrelevent anyways, as you said yourself z22, the set ups are fairly easy to swap over to the other driver if needs be.

Sigghhhhhh just another pathetic Shumi/Ferrari lovers attempt to rationalize the TOTALLY unfair preferrential treatment Shumacher recieves at Ferrari!

[Glen]

Originally posted by TeddyG
Sigghhhhhh just another pathetic Shumi/Ferrari lovers attempt to rationalize the TOTALLY unfair preferrential treatment Shumacher recieves at Ferrari!

No. Just a very reasonable attempt to discredit Jaques for his very clear double standards. His comments about the status quo at Ferrari would have much greater credibility if his own insecurities weren't so blatantly catered for by his own contract.

[Liz]

I think everybody who can read is pretty well up on Jacques and his status at BAR. What intrigues me is that even with every single advantage including the psychological ones, he still is on the grid, which is the only place it counts.

I'd love to see what he'd do in a one-car team with David Richards as his only boss. I'd give him three races before he'd be joining Irvine.

[TeddyG]

The point is who cares who has the spare car??? It can be set up for either driver quite easily in a matter of minutes. Logically it has to be set up for one driver because it would be stupid to not set it up for either one should something happen. JV is a former world champ so it is set up for him and rightly so as he has sacrificed his F1 career by trying to build this @#%$# of an F1 team.

The important thing is that when it comes to racing each driver is on equal status. Even Panis said that working with JV was great and he had no problems in recieving equal treatment within the team. I would love to hear RB make that statement...or indeed any partner teamed with a former world champ.

Jacques likes his racing fair...this contract was drawn up 5 years ago by Pollock who wanted to give JV some chance to get better results for a driver HE manages. It's not rocket science people, the more successful JV is the more money Pollock was making. The only reason Jacques doesn't have a "no teammate shall challenge me" contract like Shumi is because Jacques has always refused this. (Believe me Pollock could have gotten him one). He wants to prove that he is the best out there on his own talent. The fact that his teammates have been somewhat close to him in terms of results is (Liz) precisly because he wants equal treatment and just goes to show how little difference drivers actually make in today's F1. Something that you would see between Michael and Rubens if they were allowed to race on equal terms.
Ok I'm done. Whew!

[paul-collins]

Yes, indeed, z#'s, this proves that Jacques is "the biggest hypocrite of them all."

[Wrex]

Where to start 1st?

Znumbers, this is borderline flamebait. I'll leave it open, but I will say it leaves a sour taste in my mouth when any thread is started or hijacked just to attack a driver, regardless of his name.

As for the spare car issue, teams work in different ways. I don't see a problem dedictaing the spare car to the teams number one driver, especially when it's a former World champion. However if (and only if) Button gets the better of him, that should be reversed.

Originally posted by TeddyG
The fact that his teammates have been somewhat close to him in terms of results is (Liz) precisly because he wants equal treatment and just goes to show how little difference drivers actually make in today's F1.

Could'nt let this one pass without comment.

We have two possibilities here. The driver makes a difference or he does'nt. If hte driver does make a difference, you'll have to conceed his talents are overstated and that from the results, his team mates are too close for him to be a 'master'.

If what your saying is true, that the driver does'nt make a difference, you'll understand then when BAR give him the flick and no top team want him as his salary is higher than most others and he can't make a difference.

You can't have it both ways.

[neilap]

JV's performance or lack there of is a result of a slow car not his pace. If the car is only capable of a 1:30 second lap no one on earth will make is faster. In a slow car is is difficult to outshine anyone.
Jacques out-qualified and out raced OP in his two seasons at BAR. That should be enough to prove his pace. He also out drove GF in a couple of races, with a lesser chassis. Considering GF is rated by many as one of the best, I would say JV is among the elite in F1. His racing skills should not be questioned IMO.
Every driver wants special attention. It is up to the teams to oblige. RB wants more attention than MS but the team decided to tell him to sit down and shut up!

[Tye]

I'm curious to know if this is news to you guys?

z2252314,

Villeneuve having the spare car doesn't give him an advantage on the track.If a team is built around a driver such as Villeneuve,or Schumacher,then it is only normal for him to have priority over the spare car.I've known about this issue ever since Zonta was his team mate in the beginning.It was Pollock who arranged the spare car to go to Villeneuve in the beginning,because it was Villeneuve who the team was built around.

It is very easy to switch a car over to suit another driver,this isn't news by any means.It happens all the time.

When you talk of Villeneuve saying that Schumacher has special treatment he is not referring to the spare car.He is referring to the fact that no team mate of Schumacher's is allowed to pass him unless Michael is in trouble.With Villeneuve and his team mate it is go from the time the lights go out.They race eachother,who ever comes out on top wins,pretty simple really.Schumacher and his team mates do not race eachother,that is what Villeneuve is making reference to.

I will also say that the unfair treatment within Michael's team extends to the testing issue as well.There have been documented times where Michael's team mate has not had his fair share of testing time,this is something we all know.I'm sure it has improved slightly,but again it is Michael who gets all the time in the car.With Villeneuve,he would never curtail someones testing time,as a matter of fact I'd say that his team mates test more than he does.

I will say this again,it is the racing issue on the track that Villeneuve has an issue with.Villeneuve races his team mate and demands this on the track.With Michael's team mate it is ...after you Michael.That is unfair treatment.Villeneuve would never behave in such a manner.

bobi

[Jordi]

It's quite flame, isn't it? All the threads that attack Michael Schumacher are quickly dismissed as flame-bait and attacks, but one against Jacques... and almost everyone agrees...

Spare car (BAR) against Team orders, rigged finishes and no racing between teammates? (Ferrari)

The best example of BAR being fairer than Ferrari was Hockenheim 2000, when Zonta spun Jacques around. That will NEVER happen at Ferrari. They never get so close.

[Liz]

Originally posted by Wrex
If what your saying is true, that the driver does'nt make a difference, you'll understand then when BAR give him the flick and no top team want him as his salary is higher than most others and he can't make a difference.

You can't have it both ways.

It's impossible for outsiders to know exactly what goes on, and the rest of us are speculating using the gossip we've heard from other people who either have their own agendas or don't know any more than we do.

But I think Wrex states the whole thing very well.

[z2252314]

A lot of people have missed my point. Im not saying Michael does not get preferrential treatment from Ferrari, my point is that Jaques, the person who constantly criticizes MS over his team dominance, also receives such treatment at BAR. What is suprising is that Panis has outqualified Jaques quite a few times over the last season and has only received the use of the spare twice!!! That means if OP has qualified 9th and JV 13th, then if both go off in a first corner incident which brings out a red flag, either JV will get the spare despite being on a lower position, or OP will inherit a spare set up for Jaques, effectively compromising his race. This is a team struggling for championship points! I would have thought they would do anything to maximise their chances. As for Ferrari, MS undoubtedly has the backing of his team and I dont deny this. I dont think we'll see JV bagging out MS anymore. Before, he could always hide behind Pollock, who would never let things like this out. Richards on the other hand

To sum up, I dont have any qualms over these arrangements. They have been part of F1 for a long time now. Schecter received a lot of contractual support in Ferrari 79, likewise the red carpet was rolled out for Prost in 90' and the list goes on... But what you have to realise is that such privaleges come with a lot of expectations. Implicit in these privaleges is the assumption that the no.1 driver will carry and lead the team. MS has done this, JV has not. Nobody within Ferrari questions MS's leadership, yet I bet there are a few at BAR that wonder about JV's leadership.

Note: As for JV racing his teammate, I beg to differ. I can remember quite a few times when JV came up behind Zonta or Panis, and they both yielded quite easily. The only difference is that their doing it at 12th and 13th which nobody cares about. Likewise, Masa was asked to move over for Heidfield this year, and nobody gave a toss.

I have nothing against JV recieving contractual privaleges at BAR. However, in light of this, i find his criticisms towards MS quite suprising.

[neilap]

Well if both drivers go off the #1 should get the car, and so it is. That is only common sense.
As for OP moving out of JV's way it is true. However this was done because JV qualified lower and decided on a 2 stop race as opposed to Op's 1. That is team work.
Now these are the issues raised by DR when he took over the team. He felt there was no place for a number one in a team that was fighting for the crumbs. I agree with that. JV has an advantage, though it is more psychological than anything else.
The comparison between BAR and Ferrari is was long stretch. It is known that whoever partners MS is an employee of MS not a partner. It is Michaels team, RB is there for support. Thats it.

[z2252314]

After Austria 02' JV was asked if he would have made the same decision as Michael. His response was "Yes, if it was given to me I would have taken it". So much for his supposed racers attitude.

[neilap]

Hold on, what would anyone here have done? I certainly would have taken the win too. It was not (as far as I know) MS's choice to make RB pull over. MS as great as he is, is still an employee!
To finish what JV said, he further stated that he would not have done the garbage that MS did on the podium. He would have taken it like a man and not try to whimper away from the crowds boos or try to seem like he felt bad about it. MS did not feel guilty he was just embarrassed. He knows the way the team is and this should not have been a shock to him. To JV the worst part of the event was MS making a mockery of the podium and insulting the rest of the racers on the grid with his antics. Team orders were not banned and what Ferrari did was perfectly legal. However MS failed to face up to the monster that he and the rest of Ferrari have created.

[JohnSSC]

Gazing upon this thread from afar I can only wonder Mr Znumeric what the reaction would have been if you replaced the initials "JV" with "MS" in your original post?

You point out something that seems to have been missed: while JV has cultivated an image of being a "racer" and wanting fair play all 'round, his actions have not supported this. OP did outqualify him most of the past year. Further, JV has been with BAR since it's artificial insemination as a "contender." Bottom line is JV has not got the job done. Michael has earned every penny for dragging Scuderia Ferrari kicking and screaming to the top. Remember when the words "pitstop" and "slapstick" were interchangeable ways of describing what happened when some unfortunate Ferrari driver came in for tires? And now?

JV has taken his opportunity for true greatness (God knows he has the natural ability) and thrown it casually away. Yeah, he turns in the odd drive to let us know he still "has it," but basically he has been collecting checks and making pronouncements from The Fortress of Solitude as if that were the True Purpose of Life. It is sad really - I remember him as he was - an exhilirating, fearless driver. Now, he is just bored and we (and JV as well) have nothing to look forward to from him except how much he will mess with JB's psyche. Nice work if you can get it!

[z2252314]

Gazing upon this thread from afar I can only wonder Mr Znumeric what the reaction would have been if you replaced the initials "JV" with "MS" in your original post?

AMEN to that!! The whole point of the thread was to show people how hypocritical many members are. On the one hand they want to bash MS for his team dominance, and on the other they want to praise JV for his 'racers' attitude. What this thread shows is that JV isnt too differnt from MS in this respect. As you pointed out, at least MS hasnt abused that power. He's turned Ferrari into the champions they are. I wish i could say the same of JV.

[Valve Bounce]

I have said before that Jacques is not a team man, and his actions against his team mate Ricardo Zonta proved that. However, his exclusive use of the T car was put into his contract by Pillock, whether to entice him to BAR or to prevent him from switching teams is uncertain. This was something that Dave Richards inherited from Pillock along with Jacques' exhorbitant salary, which Dave has stated several times that he is not happy with. However a contract is a contract and Dave Richards says Bunsen knew about this and is happy to race at BAR with it for one year.
There is nothing hypocritical about this clause - it exists in Jacques contract. Now I don't want to go into SchM's contract, or Rubens contract, and ask whether there is a clause that says Rubens has to MOVE OVER.
So what is your point Znumbers? That Jacques should not want this in his contract even though it is in his contract? How stupid would that be?
I don't see anything hypocritical in this at all - it's not as if Jacques demanded the T car or his team mates car just because he likes it better than his own.
If I signed to work on a overseas contract with housing provided and I find out it is better than another engineer's contract who has to provide his own housing, I certainly would not complain about it - I'd accept my better conditions. Too bad for the other guy who accepted his conditions when he signed on.

[Don K]

Originally posted by Jordi
The best example of BAR being fairer than Ferrari was Hockenheim 2000, when Zonta spun Jacques around.

Hmmm... "Zonta spun Jacques around"?
Wasn't that a case of Jacques trying to stop a (at that time faster) Zonta from overtaking him?

[GTRMagic]

It has been said that the spare car is a hinderance on occassion, where it has reliability issues as well as the primary race car and the driver has 2 cars to struggle with

Given BAR's reliability, and the issues with the powerplant, maybe Button is in the best position... look after the one car, treat it with respect, and with good planning and execution, the need for the spare car shouldnt be there anyway

[z2252314]

So what is your point Znumbers? That Jacques should not want this in his contract even though it is in his contract? How stupid would that be?

Once again for everybody.. I am not against any provisions Jaques has in his contract. Good for him! At the time, he probably even deserved them. My point is that Jaques is the first to cry out and harker over MSchumis contract and domination of team Ferrari. Im just showing the hypocrisy in his stance, and i think my point is validated through these revelations from Dave Richards about his existing contract.

To sum up

I am not against any provisions which Jacques was able to obtain in his BAR contract.

I am not against any preferential treatment he may have received when his best friend was running the team.

I am against his constant bickering over Michael's influence on Ferrari. In my opinion, he crys foul over Michaels position in the Ferrari team, yet at the time enjoys the benefits of the spare car through contractual agreements.

The point is, Jacques should not speak out about any preferential treatment Michael receives, when he too is recieving equivalent preference at BAR.I understand, and am not against both BAR and Ferrari who have made a conscious decision to harness the team entirely to one driver. However, the difference so far between the two is that while BAR had placed all their eggs in the Villeneuve basket, it seems to me Ferrari have taken all their eggs from the Schumacher basket.