yellow flags

[simon drabble]

Firstly please let me make clear that this is NOT a winge. As a driver I have experienced some inconsistency over a green flag being shown after a yellow flag. The rule bok says that you have to stay in position until you pass the green flag. The trouble is a green flag is not always shown. Now common sense would dictate that as soon as one passes the incident then its safe to overtake and resume racing. However this inconsistency leaves the racer in a position where he might get called up afterwards and might not!
It bacame more apparent to me on Sunday at Silverstone where I overtook after the incident a much slower car in qualifying - during the race I lost a position when I let the car I was battling with overtake me before a green flag.
I would be interested to hear what marshalls do re green flags and/or reporting drivers who overtake AFTER the incident. Again to stress this is NOT a winge just want some clarification

[stroller]

Can't explain or excuse the lack of green flags after an incident, but bear in mind that there may be another incident after the first one - hence the need for green flags.

As for reporting any overtaking before the green flag I feel it is the old problem of not having eyes everywhere. If there is a lot of things going on the Observer/Flag Marshals sometimes have more to look at, and sometimes things are missed. We do our best but .......

[EvilPumpkin]

Provided it's in the rules for the class, there should be a green after a yellow - except in the case where there is a further incident as stroller already explained.

I can think of a few reasons why this might not be the case however:

1. The flagger missed it. This can and does happen although we don't like to admit it. Very few circuits have the luxury these days of back to back flags (two flag marshals, one facing down the track and one facing up) and when you're a single flagger on a post, you tend to focus your attention on the sector ahead of you as that is what you are yellow flagging for. We do try to do everything, but personally I'd rather miss a green flag than miss a yellow if I have to miss anything!
2. There was poor visibility between the flag posts and the flagger where the green should have gone out could not see the yellow.
3. The flagpost was not actually manned for that event - even if you've been used to having a flagpost there in the past, that doesn't mean that it is always used. When you did your warm up, was there definitely a green flag at that post?

If it's 1 or 2, I'd be surprised if you were reported for overtaking under yellows. Obs normally know where the green flag should be and will make allowances for that. Which brings me back to point 3....?

[TwoSheds]

I can't comment on your particular problems but generally a green flag will always be shown after a yellow flag except for two cases (that I can think of).

The first is if the session has been stopped with a red flag, in which case the green would be withdrawn and replaced with the red. But in this instance with red flags showing there should be no overtaking anyway

The second is if the following flag point hasn't seen the yellow. This can happen, especially if it is a stationary yellow on entry to a bend with the next point on the exit, they may only have the edge of the (yellow) flag showing (to them).


On the reporting point, a report should always be put in and the observer can add any information they feel relevant, i.e. overtaken car was going very slowly etc. It is then up to the CoC to take action.

[simon drabble]

I should add there is no ongoing case etc... in fact in my case the coc realized there was a slower car and took no action and rather annoyingly in the race the marshall didnt report the one who overtook me (some might say it was justice for the quallies!!)
so if the next marshall post does nothing and or is unmanned would the consensus be that if that is some way passed the incident then it is probably ok to resume racing....

[Andrew Palmer]

Originally Posted by EvilPumpkin

you tend to focus your attention on the sector ahead of you as that is what you are yellow flagging for.

Should that be the section after your post not ahead of it EP.

As I am training for a flag grade I have seen most faults and comitted a few myself.

On the point of a green flag after a yellow the main problem is the green flag is brought in when the yellow is and not held out for the last car to see the yellow. Also there is a problem with waved yellows suddeenly stopping and being withdrawn which catch's out the stationary yellow flag.

I try to down grade to a stationary from a waved yellow until proceeding post has withdrawn theirs. And if green flagging I look for the last car to pass the yellw before withdrawning.

But it is all down to training how many trainee flag marshals have been with another flag marshals during their training.

[Alan Crook]

Simon I take it you are talking about the HSCC meeting at Silverstone if so there were at least two flag marshals on all posts as well as an observer.

If you are unhappy about the overtaking you could have complained yourself to the Clerk of the Course.

Evil Pumpkin not sure what you mean by back to back flagging we are trained to flag face to face.

[simon drabble]

well to be honest I did ask if there had been a report but there had not and I did not feel it warrented a formal complaint as we were different classes and to a degree I felt it was divine retribution for me doing the same during qualies! As I said at the start this was not a winge more wanting a view as this is not the first time this has occured. More interestingly an instructor told me the other day that you could overtake after the incident which I was quite surprised by (and later corrected on by the coc).
please do not take this as a pop at marshalls as I am very grateful for all the hard work they do

[Alan Crook]

Simon did`nt think for one minute you were having a pop at marshals you always seem to support us with your comments.

It is difficult to spot all incidents all of the time and very frequently we are under manned which does not help the situation.

As a rule you should not overtake until you reach the green there could be more than one incident in the same sector. As said earlier if a green is withdrawn to early this may lead you to believe there was no green. If you are sure you have passed the next marshals post and no green or other flag is shown in your place I would resume racing.

All in all a good meeting at Silverstone with some very good racing.

Must pop along and talk to you next time we are at same meeting.

[simon drabble]

definately - are you doing the 31 July meeting at Silverstone historic?
it was a great meeting and we were lucky with the weather! watching the XK's in action is always good entertainment and re my race I dont think I could have done an hour racing at such close quarters!

[EvilPumpkin]

Originally Posted by Alan Crook

Evil Pumpkin not sure what you mean by back to back flagging we are trained to flag face to face.

Same concept, just a different term - same as the "error" that Andrew pointed out where I refer to the sector "ahead" as opposed to "after"

Apparently we have some different terms for the same things.

[Woolley]

It could also make a difference how soon after the yellow went out that you arrived. If there's one flaggy at the next post he'll probably be hoding the yellow, and if there's two, the one facing that way will have the blue. Either way, he's got to put one flag down and pick up another even once he's spotted the yellow.

The original question is a good one though, and I appreciate the way you've asked it. The simple answer is we do our best. If we miss something then a) you're lucky/unlucky and b) you probably didn't scare us too much because we do get the one's who put us at risk. Every time...

[Alan Crook]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

definately - are you doing the 31 July meeting at Silverstone historic?

Will be at Silverstone all 3 days will come and see you there.

Anyone wishing to marshal this event especially the Friday please PM me or Fay or volunteer on line on HSCC availability form on www.marshals.org.uk 17 races including TGP.

[Andrew Palmer]

Originally Posted by EvilPumpkin

Apparently we have some different terms for the same things.

Then again if you are standing back to back the yellow section is the one ahead of you.


So in this case EP you are correct, as you say different terms for the same thing.

[deadsquirrel]

Originally Posted by Andrew Palmer

Then again if you are standing back to back the yellow section is the one ahead of you.

Shouldn't be standing back to back - always face each other - then you can duck when you see your buddy duck, not get chunked on the head by whatever your mate's ducked for!

[M Greenslade]

I have seen a number of times where a green flag has been shown on the post following the yellow only to be taken in the instance the yellow comes in leaving some cars to see the yellow as they pass it but not seeing the green as they arrive at the next post. Not all drivers are looking from post to post, understandable so during a yellow flag situation, also there is this immediate desire by some flag marshals to rush in the yellow flag. I guess it all comes down to experience, training etc - Balders

[M Greenslade]

Sorry Meant the green flag dear dear me !!! - Balders

[Fay]

Another reason why you should always stand face to face is that if one of you has a yellow out the other one will see and not stick a green or blue out. This has and does happen, ie I have seen yellow and green on the same post at the same time, before someone on the post has noticed and taken the green in.

As Andrew has stated you should always try and make sure you see which car saw the yellow last and keep the green out until the car passes the green. Going back a few years at a 750 meeting, the drivers had been told off about overtaking before a green flag, to make sure they got it right they went past the yellow and refused to overtake before the green, the problem was the green was taken in when the yellow was taken in and the drivers spent the rest of the race (approximately 3-4 laps) following each other round looking for a green flag. I would have thought most drivers would have realised that they would not see a green and continue racing, but I can assure you this actually happened.

If I am on a post with only a trainee marshal, I quite often get them to flag so I can point out how to do it properly. At least then they have some idea so that as they progress through the grades, or in fact may be put out flagging on their own, they have some idea of what they are doing. Obviously this is not ideal, but when we are short at least some good comes out of undermanning.

[TwoSheds]

Originally Posted by Alan Crook

As said earlier if a green is withdrawn to early this may lead you to believe there was no green.

This is something that has been covered during flag training in previous years. If I am displaying a green flag after an incident then when I see the yellow flag withdrawn I try to keep the green flag out until the last car to see the yellow has passed.

[GordonG]

Without detracting from the word of law which is no overtaking after a yellow till you pass (not see!) the green:

If there is a yellow before the incident, then after the incident there *should* in all cases be a flag - yellow, red or green - displayed. If there is another incident further along, there should be a yellow at the next flag point, otherwise red or green.

So, if for any reason (timing, human error, sighting etc) there is no flag on the following flag post one could reasonably assume that there *should* have been a green and resume racing (though with special awareness of following flag points). This is also assuming the driver *knows* where all the flag points are, which he does since he made a mental note of them on his out lap!

Is this reasonable real world behaviour?

Gordon

[Andrew Palmer]

The word mental used about racing drivers is correct.

No not getting at any driver racing or otherwise. But think of journey you make regulary, say to work, do you know where all the speed limits signs are. So if tomorrow one or more were missing would you know where to change speed.

Just think.

Also think of the speed differents between normal driving and racing. There is also the different between the position of road signs and flag post. Road signs are normally within a foot or two of the kerb. Sliverstone flag post are one or two miles from the edge of the track (well is seems that far when I have to cross it for any reason).

And if drivers spotted all the Marshals post on the out lap or green flag lap they would stop at a post when they were in trouble and not coast halfway between two.

[John Newman]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

I would be interested to hear what marshalls do re green flags and/or reporting drivers who overtake AFTER the incident. Again to stress this is NOT a winge just want some clarification

Try http://www.flag-marshal.org.uk and click on the drivers site icon.
Might help!

[Paul Newns]

The problem with the green may be that it is always stationary (unless it is an FIA meeting) and drivers have said they do not always see stationary flags. The flag point may have had a green displayed and in the heat of racing the driver misses it. I think the FIA have it right (oh my God what have I said?!) and the green should be waved but until the MSA change the rule stationary it must be.

If I see any overtaking under yellow I always tell the observer who can decide whether to report it or not. If there are mitigating circumstances such as the cars were well past the incident and one was lapping the other I'll also point that out.

[Mark Mitchell]

Paul, my own personal view is that the green flag SHOULD be waved, whether for a "Green Flag Lap" or following a yellow flag.
The MSA should consider a change in procedure here, as a waved flag is far eaier to see than a static flag.

[Andrew Palmer]

I've had a bad day at work, for a Safety Officer that's good news for everyone else. What I'm saying is I had every little to do by think.

Here is one for the MSA and the FIA to think on. Yellow flags are currently shown stationary two posts before an incident, waved the post before and green after. This do not give drivers much warning of a problem ahead.

So how about Stationary three posts before, then single waved two posts before and double waved the post before and green shown at the next two posts after the incident again the first waved and the second stationary. This should give drivers plenty of time and warning before an incident and also when it's safe to race again after it.