Le Mans style finishes and small grids (was 360 MRC Snetterton)

[exflagman]

Originally Posted by The Fat Clerk

Special mention to The Riches crew, who followed the Le Mans tradition of waving every flag they had as the cars passed them after taking the Chequred Flag. Brought a tear to the eye.

What - at the stupidity of it!

The race may have finished but things can still happen.

If you are waving every flag in 'celebration', how do you signal to the competitors that a car has stopped in the middle of the circuit, dropped its sump or any other of the miriad of things that can happen..

Also - if the first flag post after finish line starts waving a yellow - one must assume that the previous post will display a stationary yellow and could seriously **** off any competitor trying to make a last minute overtaking before the chequered flag - must admit I would like to be in Race Control when that report comes in!

[MartinSmith]

I will repeat FC's words of thanks and praise to all of the Marshals that made this event happen just as much (if not more) than we did.

We seriously cannot thank you enough

Exflag, I think you may be discrediting people on the bank with the fundamental basics of common sense, I dont want to turn this into a debate as it really doesnt warrent it, surfice to say, if an incident had happened near to or within sight of the post, I doubt very much if ALL of the flags would have been waved at once at all, for common sense would have prevailed!

I think it was actually a sign or visual indication of the fact that these guys had been out there for six hours...and really enjoyed it...thats why they do it at Le Man, thats my version of it anyway..its all I will say

Thanks again to all of you

THE 360 MOTOR RACING CLUB

[exflagman]

Claire - I wasn't trying to hijack the thread but its just that I find it very strange that senior race control officials were advocating such behaviour, having spent many years as an experienced flag marshal and training instructor trying to educate trainee flag marshals that such behavior is not advisable for a whole raft of reasons.

[deley]

Originally Posted by The Fat Clerk

.............. who followed the Le Mans tradition of waving every flag they had as the cars passed them after taking the Chequred Flag.......

Certainly not something to be encouraged - normal flag conditions should be maintained

[MagnetON]

I think drivers and marshals have a little more common sense than some people on here might credit them for.

If I'm a driver and I've crossed the finish line after seeing the chequered flag, if I see EVERY flag out the box, I think I would recognise that as a celebration. If I saw a single (especially yellow) flag then I think I would recognise the meaning.

As for "if there was an incident", consider that after taking the chequered I'd be driving at considerably less than full speed, more likely considerably less than the "backed off" speed I'd be doing if I saw a yellow flag during a race.

Just my 2cents worth.

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by deley

Certainly not something to be encouraged - normal flag conditions should be maintained

And if there are a group of marshals standing circuit side, does that mean the preceding post should display a waved yellow

Sorry, I'm not trying to make light of it, but surely even racing drivers can spot a whole bunch of orange overalls and waved flags when they're not running at full race speed. Going back to Chris's post on the marshal standards thread:

Originally Posted by Chris Hobson

if the marshal feels safe (and it must be the marshal’s decision), then they are expected to get down onto the live circuit

... personally, I would feel safe under these conditions, unless there were unusual circumstances.

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by exflagman

What - at the stupidity of it!

The race may have finished but things can still happen.

If you are waving every flag in 'celebration', how do you signal to the competitors that a car has stopped in the middle of the circuit, dropped its sump or any other of the miriad of things that can happen..

Also - if the first flag post after finish line starts waving a yellow - one must assume that the previous post will display a stationary yellow and could seriously **** off any competitor trying to make a last minute overtaking before the chequered flag - must admit I would like to be in Race Control when that report comes in!

Doesn't it happen at the end of every F1 race as well? Sure I've seen it happening at least.

[MartinSmith]

Exflag

I apprieciate your point re training but you are with respect, making a mountain out of a molehill.

Its common sense, its fun its why we do what we do

I spose there are some who would argue that christmas trees sould not be decorated with lights because of the risk of fire, but you still see them in peoples windows at christmas.

Get a grip x

[exflagman]

Originally Posted by ClaireSmith

Exflag

I apprieciate your point re training but you are with respect, making a mountain out of a molehill.

Its common sense, its fun its why we do what we do

I spose there are some who would argue that christmas trees sould not be decorated with lights because of the risk of fire, but you still see them in peoples windows at christmas.

Get a grip x

As a Probationary Clerk I wonder how you would deal with the drivers in the following situation.

Leaders take the chequered flag, drive round on their slowing down lap passing a number of flag points where the marshals are waving an assortment of flags - part way round the course they see a single marshal at a flag point attempting to wave a yellow and oil flag - drivers pass the post and wave to the nice friendly flag marshal - round the next corner to be confronted by a gigantic oil slick, blocked track and marshals everywhere - in the confusion drivers run into the wreckage.

What penalty would you apply and to who?

Could be a good test for a training day.!

It's not fun if you are the flag marshal on the point and everyone runs off with your flags - cars have been known to expire and even collide - sometime not even accidentally - on the slowing down lap.

I trump your 'making mountains out of molehills' with 'a runaway traing takes a lot of stopping' - we managed to stop the practice in the UK some years ago - I'm just not particularly happy to see senior officials advocating it again.

[Terry Scannell]

ExFlagman,

With all due respect, I can say that I was the Post Chief on Riches and I instructed my team (rightly or wrongly) that if they wished to wave all the flags at the end of the race after the chequered flag had been shown, but while safely remaining behind the barriers at the two posts Riches In and Out I would have no objection under the circumstances, considering the efforts by the drivers / teams and the 360MRC to make this first ever 360MRC event the success it was.

This I considered to be a major achievement worth celebrating to show the drivers our appreciation of their efforts during the day.

In coming to this decision I considered the risk factor - only six cars still running - spread out around the circuit - and most running slowly purely to ensure that they managed to get to the finish line and the chequered flag after some six hours racing. Riches In Post being the second flag point after the chequered flag -hence not directly affecting cars coming to the line as you stated.

In different circumstances I would reconsider this type of action and possibly not allow it. In this particular case I do believe that it was appreciated by all the competitors finishing the event as was made clear afterwards by several of them.

End of discussion,

Terry

[EvilPumpkin]

Ok well I come into this thread all happy and excited and wanting to thank everyone for a wonderful day out. Bit saddened to see how it's going *sigh* but then again, what else is new. Seems like there is always someone looking to nitpick.

I would consider myself a fairly experienced flag marshal as well, so while I wasn't marshalling this event, I think I can comment on it.

Le Mans style finishes are like everything else in motorsport - whether or not you should do one depends entirely on the circumstances.

I didn't get to meet all the marshals at Snett yesterday, but from the ones I did meet and what I saw around the circuit, they are more than qualified to make a circumstancial decision on safety.

My own opinion is that, given the drivers involved and having observed them for 6 hours, I would have been more than happy that they were intelligent enough to determine the difference between a Le Mans finish and an incident and disciplined and experienced enough that they would not put the marshals at risk. In addition, from what I saw, the track visibility was more than sufficient for a driver to determine if there was a danger.

I would also say that a thread to thank marshals for their participation in the event is not the place to put a post criticising something that you didn't even see. We have had several general discussions of Le Mans style finishes and I'm sure it would be fine to start another one. Posting it here is simply unnecessary griping and it's the reason that some people, myself included, tend to stay out of threads in here. On the one hand, there are complaints that it's a thankless job, but if you post a thank you and get this type of response, that's hardly surprising, is it.

And now back to the actual topic.

On behalf of Grant and myself, we'd like to say a huge thank you to both the marshals and organisers of this event for a great day. You made us so welcome it was almost like being at home and we're really looking forward to coming back to Snetterton next year to marshal (thanks for the invite! )

However, that's only if we're guaranteed some more home made sausage rolls!!!!

[BILTEL]

Oh no, not another knocker that wasn't there!!

The marshalls were as always superb. They also entered into the spirit and seemed to enjoy themselves whilst maintaining the high standards we enjoy with Britains Orange Army . I doubt that would have been the same if a certain person on this thread had been there. Yes safety is utmost, but there was only 7 cars left running, all spaced out and at much slower speeds than a normal lap. You needed to be there for your argument to be in context. I'm not knocking an ex marshall or safety, but............

[rbs]

I have just read on another thread that there were only 8 entries for this race, I am surprised that enough marshals were awake to wave all the flags.

I have to ask do we need races this long for so few cars?

[MagnetON]

Originally Posted by rbs

I have to ask do we need races this long for so few cars?

Yes, because events have to start SOMEWHERE, and as the posts from marshals, drivers, officials, team members, spectators and various hangers on (myself and EP included) show, a good time was had by all!

[rbs]

Originally Posted by MagnetON

Yes, because events have to start SOMEWHERE, and as the posts from marshals, drivers, officials, team members, spectators and various hangers on (myself and EP included) show, a good time was had by all!

Many have moaned (me included) about the lack of entries in classes such as Speed and the new Chevrons, the races are shorter than this one, why is 8 cars acceptable for this series? It is obvious that competitors are not getting value for money or there would have been a larger entry. Perhaps organisers should talk to Jonathan Blake of the Ma5da MX5 series, he seems to have the organisation correct as he only had 75 entries at Silverstone over the weekend!

[MagnetON]

Originally Posted by rbs

Many have moaned (me included) about the lack of entries in classes such as Speed and the new Chevrons, the races are shorter than this one, why is 8 cars acceptable for this series?

Not a series, a one off event, new club, new event, and in this case, the small grid worked. Roll on 2011 and bigger grids.

[EvilPumpkin]

I've already expressed, earlier in this thread, my disappointment that a thank you thread from the marshals was turned into a discussion of perceived negative aspects of the event (perceived by those who weren't there of course).

When genuine appreciation is show for the marshals and what we do, I don't think it's appropriate - or particularly good manners - to launch attacks on the people doing the thanking or on the event.

On this basis, I've moved the thank you posts to this thread. A couple of the posts were also addressing issues here so my apologies to the posters if they need to rewrite what they posted.

People who were not at the event but wish to offer their expert opinion on it may now continue to do so.

[Dan Friel]

Originally Posted by EvilPumpkin

I've already expressed, earlier in this thread, my disappointment that a thank you thread from the marshals was turned into a discussion of perceived negative aspects of the event (perceived by those who weren't there of course).

When genuine appreciation is show for the marshals and what we do, I don't think it's appropriate - or particularly good manners - to launch attacks on the people doing the thanking or on the event.

On this basis, I've moved the thank you posts to this thread. A couple of the posts were also addressing issues here so my apologies to the posters if they need to rewrite what they posted.

People who were not at the event but wish to offer their expert opinion on it may now continue to do so.

Well there's been two threads running for the last 24 hours, so good to clarify the situation. But this is a discussion forum, and generally people should be allowed to express an opinion... even if some believe it's misguided.

I also think there's probably a degree of confusion about the 360MC race. We've all been banging on about too many grids, rubbish entries and low marshalling standards (although not convinced about that one). Then we get a race meeting with 8 cars, 6 hours and "irregular" marshalling. It's also been heavily promoted through 10/10ths. So could be tricky for many of us to understand the concept and what made the event special.

Best of luck for 2011 and hope it's made to work.

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by Dan Friel

...... So could be tricky for many of us to understand the concept and what made the event special. .

Dan, you needed to be there, especially in some participating role. As car owner/prepper, team manager, #1 driver and #2 mechanic it was 'bloody brilliant'....

[Piglet]

I think what is disappointing, is that as is so very common on here and especially on the marshals forum at times, posters seem to show no recognition of positives, only negatives.

I have no connection with 360MC other than I know both John and Claire and I've read some of the threads that led to the formation of 360. I do though recognise that what they have achieved in getting a new club recognised by the MSA and running their first meeting is bloody impressive. So they didn't have a good grid - I wonder how many one off events did have a good grid on their first outing?

I find the whole negativity really disappointing but to be honest quite typical.

[EvilPumpkin]

Originally Posted by Dan Friel

Well there's been two threads running for the last 24 hours, so good to clarify the situation. But this is a discussion forum, and generally people should be allowed to express an opinion... even if some believe it's misguided.

Absolutely. But I just think that there is a time and a place - it's not difficult to start another thread. I just think that attacking someone who is posting a "thank you" is both detrimental and rude.

The discussion is still here you'll notice!

Originally Posted by Dan Friel

I also think there's probably a degree of confusion about the 360MC race. We've all been banging on about too many grids, rubbish entries and low marshalling standards (although not convinced about that one). Then we get a race meeting with 8 cars, 6 hours and "irregular" marshalling. It's also been heavily promoted through 10/10ths. So could be tricky for many of us to understand the concept and what made the event special.

Also agreed - although I dispute the "irregular marshalling". Le Mans style finishes are something that happen all over the place - hardly unique to this event.

But on the rest, yes I know exactly what you mean.

That being said, as I understand it, the final grid numbers were a result of a number of things, specifically a lot of very last minute drop outs from teams for various reasons - some financial and some mechanical. The final numbers were not known until very very late - I don't know the specifics but I think it was late on the Friday evening - prior to that, it was a relatively healthy grid. You can't cancel a race meeting that late - most people are already travelling.

However, the one thing that I have noticed is that the marshals who were there - who would certainly be in a position to complain - don't seem to be doing so. I'm not sure how many post on Tenths - but certainly the ones I met read it. But from speaking to them directly on the day, they didn't have any complaints.

[Steven Humphrey]

We did the Le Mans style flag waving at the end of the 2cv 24hr last year-and it was fantastic! It gave us a chance to show thanks to the drivers & them a chance to thank us. They do it at Le Mans every year, also LMS (apart from Silverstone) & ALMS races and most F1 GPs. Has there ever been an incident at any of these events? (serious question)

[Woolley]

Le Mans finishes, I'm not comfortable but it does seem common now. I particularly don't like it at Le Mans, actually, since they do it on the last racing lap. Heaven knows what'll happen the day they have two cars racing for the line who then need to do an emergency stop and handbrake turn through the line of marshals down the finish straight...

[MartinSmith]

Firstly, with regards to "acceptable" grids , I find that terminology quite offensive, not so much for me, although I do take slight offense at it but to the competitors and mainly to the Marshals who attended the event.

We didn't put this on as some sort of "service", it isn't measured by a service level agreement "sorry...only eight cars ....thats unacceptable"...no...I think not

Why is it that success seems to be based on how many cars there were at an event?...let me tell you, even with only eight cars, even with a gigantic whole in my pocket and that of JohnGee, this race was the greatest success of my life!...I will conclude this with the following

FIND ME ONE PERSON WHO WAS THERE AND DIDNT LIKE IT. because so far, the only negativity I have heard about it, is from people who were not actually there

I was absolutely amazed when, after giving the Fat Clerk the money we had put aside for the marshals, he returned to race control with over half of it still in his hand saying "They wouldnt take it" "loads of them said I dont want your money ...and thanked me" he said
now that, that IS ACCEPTABLE...in fact...thats amazing and once again we cannot thank you enough.

Those that attended you had every right if you so wished to say "sod this...im off" no one would have blamed you ...8 cars...mmm .not much of an event......ohhhh how wrong we were!!!! You were fantastic, the sea of orange outside race control was just amazing. All of us were just knocked off our feet by it.

As we say on the website, as I said in the programe, as I will again say on here THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH...THE 360 MOTOR RACING CLUB SALUTE YOU AND LOOK FORWARD TO SEEING YOU AGAIN NEXT YEAR

Thanks


Dan, with regard to "what made it so special"....I dont know but I wish I could bottle it!!!

I do know actually, I know exactly what made that event so special...the people....the people who were there, who loved the idea of it, who supported us with it, the ones who raced, the teams that helped the drivers, the ones
who Marshaled, who scrutinised, who timekept, who jumped on a plane and didnt even really like endurance racing! who gave it their all hell even me! we all made it special

I had a lovely e mail today from Jody Halse, the guy in the PUG...he said

"just want to thank you again,,,, it was great, Thank all who helped , the officials and the other teams and also the Marshals especially""I cant believe that we came within 1 minute of the winners....thats the beauty of this race...where else can a 1957 Jag 3.8ltr run on equal terms with a 1988 1.9ltr peugeot??? WELL DONE ALL"

Thats what made it special

Also just to let you all know, ive had three enquiries from completely new people who want to enter NOW for next year...so at least you have three more (cause the 8 have already said they are coming back!")

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by exflagman

As a Probationary Clerk I wonder how you would deal with the drivers in the following situation.

Leaders take the chequered flag, drive round on their slowing down lap passing a number of flag points where the marshals are waving an assortment of flags - part way round the course they see a single marshal at a flag point attempting to wave a yellow and oil flag - drivers pass the post and wave to the nice friendly flag marshal - round the next corner to be confronted by a gigantic oil slick, blocked track and marshals everywhere - in the confusion drivers run into the wreckage.

What penalty would you apply and to who?

Could be a good test for a training day.!

It's not fun if you are the flag marshal on the point and everyone runs off with your flags - cars have been known to expire and even collide - sometime not even accidentally - on the slowing down lap.

I trump your 'making mountains out of molehills' with 'a runaway traing takes a lot of stopping' - we managed to stop the practice in the UK some years ago - I'm just not particularly happy to see senior officials advocating it again.

Ex Flag

I can see maybe why Clerking wouldn't really be your thing and that maybe in order to prove your point you remain so very narrow minded, just out of interest, the lone flag marshal, did he have a radio or not?..was he alone on the post? ..was he off post and the post manned by another marshal in contact with race control?. did the post before the lone flag marshal post display a static yellow? or was THAT the "offending" post whose Marshals waved their flags? did this incident happen before or after the race ended? if it happened after the race ended how long after the race ended, if before, how long before? ...was the post where the marshal (lone) came from within sight of the previous post? when, (for the benefit of by your reckoning the major incident report that Im going to need to write out) did the flag marshal begin waving this flag? Your story would need much more depth than what you have stated.

When you state about the training day, what circuit would you stage this on? and for whose training?

Cars collide not even accidently? you mean, they ran into each other on purpose?

I will state once again that you are discrediting the brave folk in Orange as if to say that they cannot and do not think for themselves, as Terry has stated, he made that decision to allow the waving, I am sure, that, if the incident that you have made up had happened, radio communication would have been with Race Control who would have (if Terry could not have seen) notified him of the situation, Terry then having the common sense that you seem to think he lacks would not have made the decision to allow the multi flag wave and therefore not given you what seems to be a great deal of stress for something so trivial

I didnt know we were playing trumps, thought we were having a discussion but ok YES a run away train or traing as you put it does take a lot of stopping ....but thats regardless of if you wave flags at it to celebrate the end of an inaugural race or not! [