Rescue Crews Stoppping Races

[M Greenslade]

I was Observing at Cadwell Park from post 12 with a radio last Sunday for the 750MC when a stock hatch went off hard hitting the tyre wall between posts 11 and 12, at once marshals were on their way to deal with it. The next thing I heard over the radio was 'red flag, rescue unit on way to the scene', from the speed of which this was sent I don't believe post 12 would have had the time to ring through to Race Control and I did not issue any such instructions.

By the time the rescue had arrived the driver had vacated and was on the bank and marshals were attending him and the stricken car.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the call for rescue and race stop actually came from rescue, if so it begs the question why?

I know the accident looked violent, that can be the nature of accidents, but it does not always mean the worse, it is often the case that the worst looking accidents result in no injury at all.

With our crew of many years of quality experience we are not known to panic and will endeavour to deal with every incident quickly and in a profession manner and should we require a race stop or a rescue crew to attend then we will ask for that to happen.

There is, or should be a chain of command which should be stuck to, otherwise all sorts of things can go wrong.

In this case I think stopping the race and getting the driver checked out was the right thing to do, I am just conerned how it was done, it is not that I am on some ego trip, but surely the decision should come from the Observer.

Balders

[Peter Harding]

As I spend a lot of time for other clubs on the bank and for 750MC in race control, I have seen this from both angles. There have been many times when the Rescue unit (particularly if following the grid) have called for stop while I am still assessing the situation. It can be very annoying.
When in Race Control, it would be a brave clerk who ignored such a request and waited for obs to call it because if anything went wrong, they would have difficulty explaining to a court why they ignored a request from such experienced personnel.
I will try to talk to those involved in "my" club, but it is a sensitive issue and I will have to tread carefully.
In the meantime it's good that we have observers who can bite their tongue on the day and bring it up like this afterwards.

[Teletubby]

I have to say that it's very difficult to declare that it should never happen but ideally that is the case. The potential problem arises when chasing a race start and a car hits a Marshals post. The Obs and his crew are still dusting themslves down when the Unit arrives to find car having had a large impact, driver still in the car and Marshals picking themselves up! What to do? I have in that situation asked for a stop. In a perfect world all requests should come from the Observer but this won't always be the case. The usual BARC approach is to notify race control that we are attending but leave everything else to the Obs. We do this only if the incident is in sight and the guys on the ground are signalling to the Obs for assistance. This approach is not officially sanctioned by BARC but has worked well in the past. The only other time I have done this is when the number of Marshals is low and the entire post are helping out at an incident under a safety car and the behaviour of the drivers has warranted asking for a stop.

[Micky.H]

I can understand a rescue unit making the call when on 'the chase' as there is a good chance that they are closer to the incident to see what is required. Otherwise it should be down to the observer who is closer to the incident. As Martin states above there needs to be a clear chain of command.

[M Greenslade]

In this particular incident rescue had pulled off the circuit and witnessed this from the other side of the circuit, yes I can understand 'the on the chase' response, but this was not the case here. - Balders

[stroller]

it is often the case that the worst looking accidents result in no injury at all.

If the worse came to the worse, would you be prepared to stand up in a Coroners Court and say the same thing?

[Mrs BlackX]

I am quite sure that more experienced voices will correct me if I am wrong here.....

From my understanding of Rescue (This is limited to Hillclimbing though) Rescue are not allowed to attend an incident until instructed by Course Control regardless of how serious they consider the incident to be.

Funnily enough this was being discussed after Saturday's racing at Shelsley Walsh by the rescue crew and marshal's. Like I said I may well be way off the mark with this as this incident happened at a circuit and I am only familiar with Hillclimbs

*Waits for blackx (hubby) to berate me for attempting to appear knowledgable*

[b1ackcr0w]

I think the circumstances at a circuit changes the situation quite a lot. At a Hillclimb, the main problem is not who decides to close the hill, more controlling the amount of room available to move vehicles near the incident. At a circuit there is generally bucket loads of room, but with cars circulating round, the priority becomes keeping the remaining competitors from colliding with the Rescue on route to the scene. I would have thought the first lap chase and then the fact they may have to cross the circuit amongst amongst competing cars makes their point of view somewhat unique and therefore gives them the right to ask for a stop if they feel they need it for their own safety.

[Teletubby]

Blackcrow is right, there is a huge difference between a hillclimb and a circuit event. There is unlikely to be enough space or visibility at a hillclimb to be able to do anything other than wait to be scrambled. Circuits tend to have more space around the periphery of the circuit to make movement prior to activation a possibility depending upon circumstances. As an aside to this it is a horrible feeling being able to see your colleagues 'on the bank' frantically calling for medical assistance when you can't really do anything until told to, this is the motivator for 'use of common sense' by the crew chief. A rescue unit must be able to reach the scene of an incident within 90 seconds of leaving it's standby position, if you are dealing with an injured driver, Marshal or spectator this will seem like an eternity! As I said BARC will tolerate us moving if we feel the situation warrants it, this is usually only a viable option if we can see the incident and also that there is no race traffic approaching. Bear in mind though that if it goes wrong then the crew chief is in it up to his neck! The original point referred to Rescue asking for race stops and I stand by what I said earler, in an ideal situation this should not happen but sometimes it is necessary. I can't comment about the specific incident at Cadwell as I have no knowledge of it and to do so would be very unprofessional.

[Pete Howarth]

Originally posted by stroller
If the worse came to the worse, would you be prepared to stand up in a Coroners Court and say the same thing?

But the same can be said if the unit asks for a stop and attends an incident that doesn't require their presence and another incident occurs that does require their immediate response when only a single unit present at the circuit.

[S_Morrell]

Hi all
There are a number of operational issues being discussed here. If it helps, here’s my two cents from a rescue crew chief standpoint. I will say at the outset that this is the way we do things on our rescue unit – it may not be the case for all units and circuits

When we are chasing a race start, we are often on scene at around the same time that the marshals arrive. In this case, time is already working against us. I need to make a prompt decision whether or not to attend (stop at) the incident. If we stop, I radio to race control and let them know that we are stopping at the incident. I do not routinely call for red flags at this stage. The decision (to attend or not) must be made as quickly possible as, if we decide to leave, we prefer to continue to the standby location before the pack comes round again at racing speed.
I then need to quickly ascertain if the driver is injured, trapped or just needs a few seconds to dust off. If it is the latter, or if we are able to get the driver on board promptly, we can continue to our standby location without red flags.
However, if it appears that the driver is injured or trapped, I will absolutely radio for a race stop. This is because it is not safe for us to extricate or treat a driver when a session is live.

This leaves us open to analysis as, on many such occasions, the driver ultimately turns out to be OK. It sometimes appears to onlookers that we didn’t need to stop the session and I can certainly understand why observers may feel as if they are being kept ‘out of the loop’ somewhat.

One thing I would mention here is that sometimes the observer sometimes is not privy to all the information that we as a crew have about the incident. For example, last year we stopped to attend a multiple car incident in a race we were chasing. Although the drivers were out, one of them was walking around and mentioned symptoms that are usual for someone with a C-spine injury. The neck was being supported by one of the rescue crew but the driver needed to be properly immobilised. I called for red flags on my radio but had problems getting this approved as the observer was on the phone saying that everything appeared OK as all the drivers were out.
Here was a situation where both the observer and I were making the correct decisions based on the information that we had – but we were actually making different decisions.

Regarding calling for red flags on incidents we get scrambled to, this is a different situation. As previously mentioned, we need to get there within 90 seconds. Often, a scramble of the rescue unit also results in race control calling for red flags. If the session is not stopped, I work in exactly the same way that I mentioned before - see what the driver needs and ask for red flags if we need to ‘stay and play’. If we can get out of the way without calling for red flags, we will do.

Regarding rescue crews scrambling before being called for by control, this does happen but usually only when we are ‘line of sight’ to the incident. We can see the incident and know it is a big one. The marshals will attend and we can see the same hand signals that the marshals give to the I/O or observer. If we can see that the marshal is calling for a rescue unit, we just go without being called. This is because we know it takes a little bit of time for the message to be relayed via the observer and race control. Of course, we do radio in to race control and let them know where we’ve gone (just in case they get worried about us)

Hopefully, that explains a little more about the decision process. I will be glad to answer any other questions that you folks may have, please ask if you’re not sure. Alternatively, come and see me at any of the race meetings we are attending (mainly Oulton, Anglesey and Donington)

Cheers
Simon Morrell

[Micky.H]

Taking into account that the rescue unit was the other side of the circuit whereas the observer was near the incident, then the rescue unit should not of interefered - what are we allways told, wait for the dust to settle, which in this case it appears would of allowed the observer to make an informed decision, as per his role as an observer.

[tonyC]

If the worse came to the worse, would you be prepared to stand up in a Coroners Court and say the same thing?

My concern would be that ALL incidents "big" or "minor" must be treated in the same manner. We must never assume one way or another, for some of the reasons pointed out by Simon.

[Teletubby]

Simon, that's the point I was trying to make but not quite so eloquently!

[JimW]

Interesting points. I agree with Simon and Teletubby. The guidance I give rescue crews during training is "You are not entitled to interfere with the job of an Observer, but if you do, you had better be right! "

The two special cases are following a start (as outlined above) and when there are insufficient marshals on post to provide 'proper'cover.

Regards

Jim

[M Greenslade]

Thanks Mickey.H amomgst all the usual waffle you at least seem to understand my point of view -thank you - Balders

[Tracey]

I'm training on the BRSCC unit at Snetterton. Our unit has been stationed at Riches, and seen guys barrell roll in front of us. The crew cheif has radioed through and asked if we can attend, but as far as I can recall, not asked for a red flag although I think the races were stopped.

In both incidents, the drivers were fine (very lucky boys - from impacts a lot smaller I have seen others complain of pain). We were the quickest option to get to the incidents as one required crossing the circuit, and the other a fair distance from the marshals post. In both incidents, I feel it was right for us to move under clearance from Race Control - the quicker the better and better safe than sorry!

[S_Morrell]

The "usual waffle" eh? Well, that helps... (
If that is what you expect then why do you bother to ask in the first place? Comments like this are unnecesary and unwelcome.

This forum is for people to share opinions and to answer questions as best they can. The point that was made earlier by another contributor is that we can't comment on the incident at Cadwell - only the rescue unit involved can do that. That should have answered your original question about why that unit scrambled - we just don't know. The rest was just information from other interested contributors to try to paint a fuller picture.

If you feel that the rest of the folks who replied were just waffling, perhaps we would be better not wasting our time by replying to your posts...

[M Greenslade]

Sorry S_Morrell I am out of order, did not mean to upset or offend anyone - sorry. When I meant waffle I guess I was kind of refering to situations which went applicable to what I witnessed i.e. what happens at hill climbs (don't want to offend anyone here either) has little in common with what goes on on the track.

[S_Morrell]

No worries
Thanks for the message
Cheers
Si

[Mrs BlackX]

Originally posted by M Greenslade
When I meant waffle I guess I was kind of refering to situations which went applicable to what I witnessed i.e. what happens at hill climbs (don't want to offend anyone here either) has little in common with what goes on on the track.

Yes I have been known to waffle now and again, but I did say that I didn't know if it was the same as Hill Climbing... I did also point out that I was sure that I would be corrected by people who knew more than myself...

Originally posted by tonyC
My concern would be that ALL incidents "big" or "minor" must be treated in the same manner. We must never assume one way or another, for some of the reasons pointed out by Simon.

Couldn't agree more tonyC, what may seem like a harmless incident may well turn out to be a serious one. The injuries that you cant see are the ones that are the most dangerous...

Thank you S_Morrell for your explanation of circuit rescue, it's true what they say you know... "you learn something new everyday"

[Pike]

One point is (I think) that everything above says that clubs/venues differ in what is acceptable and what is not. I mean to take it to the extreme would it be tolerated if a unit rolled in a F1 race without being called - somehow think not, then again a clubbie event may be very grateful, even if its for 3 more marshals to arrive at the scene quickly with fire bottles.

I do also believe that a rescue unit can call for a red flag if the rescue chief feels they are in a place of danger even under safety car/waved yellow conditions. Generally race control/obs on post will have done this by the time rescue asks I would have hoped.

[Mark Mitchell]

My two euro's worth.......

I have no problems with Rescue Units stopping at an incident when "Chasing" at starts as they quite often have a clearer, closer view of what's happening/happened.
One thing that does frustrate me though is the apparent reluctance of some Rescue personel to later assist the Observer in his report.
It helps immensely to have some extra info to add to the report and if the guys & gals on the Unit actaully saw the incident, then I believe that you also have a duty to "Paint The Picture" for the Clerk by way of helping with the report.

In recent times I have had Rescue stop on the first corner of the first lap to attend an incident without my calling for it (They ere chasing) and when I later asked if they could assist with the report I was told "You're The Observer........"

I usually find though that we all work well together!

[JimW]

Sorry Mark, don't agree.

What I am concentrating on when in a RU following a start and what gets my attention when observing are two entirely different sets of data. Who hit who? I don't know and (in a RU) I don't really care. I'm concentrating on who is not getting out, whether marshals are signalling (and trying to get my driver to slow down. ).

Also, I'm trying to work out what to report to Race Control (if anything) and which person is going to run under our wheels because they are focussed on the incident and not paying attention.

Don't forget that we have a very poor view from miles behind the back of the grid and generally arrive on scene way after the incident and without having seen very much. This is very true at Donington for (e.g.) any incident after Redgate and at Thruxton after the start gantry.

So, sorry but "I saw nothing" is probably true and not an attempt to get out of helping you.

Regards

Jim

[S_Morrell]

Thanks Jim - you beat me to it
I have to take issue with Mark's comments also.
I would be very surprised if any rescue crew who actually saw the initial incident refused to assist an observer.

We rarely see the start of an incident - but we do occasionally arrive as various bits of metal are still flying through the air.