Electronic Rider Aids

[jhansen]

With the advent of the 800cc bikes a lot has been made of traction control and the like. This is a good off-season armchair motorsport fan topic.

Here are some rider insights into traction control. The interviewer had just asked Hayden if he had heard about Michael Schumacher's lap time from the Valencia test day. This was meant to see if Hayden felt the electronics play too large of a role in Moto GP. His response, including a nice compliment to Casey Stoner.

Originally Posted by Nicky Hayden

You know, that's hard to answer, because I don't know what system Ducati has. I know our system. I think we can improve a lot. I don't think we're as advanced as the Ducati is. On our bike, I can tell you, you cannot just whack the throttle open. It's not like people think traction control is, on our bike. But I know the Ducati is quite advanced. So maybe on that bike, he can. Supposedly Loris, that's what people—he could never get that, where Casey could. I definitely, the electronics have made things a lot—people say, "Oh, they're easier, they're easier." Yeah, they're easier, but people are just riding them faster now. Just because you've got electronics, drop in there behind Stoner and then tell me how easy it is.

Yeah, it's made the bikes probably easier to ride, but I don't think it's made it any easier to try to break track records, because everybody has it. I think that's something people don't understand. They think traction control is like in a car. You can't just whack the throttle and wheelie this or that. It's a big part of that, and it's a big help, but everybody has it, so it's not really any different than when nobody had it. Yeah, it's made things, tire life as the race goes on, easier, you change your settings, but I can't really - I think it's made it easier for probably 250 riders. Honestly, I liked it without. I think for my style, my dirt-track background, would be to my advantage if nobody had it. But we're not riding around in horse and carriages any more, either, and this is the future. But I think people have a misconception about it, that it makes it a lot easier, and that just whacking the throttle open—well, I know with what we got, that's clearly not the case.

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2007/Nov/071127-69-4.htm

I'm pretty sure I recall Rossi saying that the electronics had now gone too far.

So what are you thoughts?

[jhansen]

Originally Posted by Colin Edwards

But to find that last, four tenths say, you have to back the electronics off and really start to work it. It's like a gamble; play safe with the electronics and you'll be too slow. If everybody had the electronics turned up all the time then we would all be doing the same lap time.

http://www.crash.net/motorsport/moto...her_speed.html

Originally Posted by Andrea Dovizioso

"I found the RC212V easier to ride than my 250, the electronics control things very well. The power is good but there's not too much like the older 990cc bike, which I tried back in 2004. People ask about the difference between the 250 and the 800. The biggest thing is the completely different way the power comes in: with the 250 the power is high in the rev-range, with the 800 there is power everywhere.

The electronics make a big difference. On every corner I can fully open the throttle and the traction control handles it – even on a bike with more than 100bhp more than my 250! If I did that on a 250 I would go flying in the air and it would hurt!

http://www.crash.net/motorsport/moto...an_my_250.html

[Gerben24]

The good thing about the traction control is that it made motorcycle racing a bit safer. The bikes don't highsides as quick anymore. To be honest, since we're racing with 4 strokes the highsides accidents have reduces anyway.

I don't like the launch controls. I'm surprised we haven't seen more accidents as we saw at the start of the Barcelona race in 2006. When everybody has sorted out their launch control (Ducati have the best at the moment and as NH says Honda can still improve a lot) everybody will more or less shoot away from the startline with the same acceleration and that means they arrive at the first corner in a very close pack.

In Faster Jeremy Burgess said something like: "In motorcycle racing the rider is more important than the bike, it's about 80 - 20 proportion."

I think with electronics that ratio is definitely different. Sure, it aint easy, for a normal person! But a proffesional rider coming up from 250cc or WSBK can ride at the front and win in say his 4th race (Pedrosa) or leave for a season, than come back and win the race (Bayliss).

Oh, did I mention that with all the electronic gadgets the tyres have become more important than ever...

[Hazza]

I disagre on the grounds that Pedrosa is a fairly talented bloke, and with Bayliss the bike was right and he had the best tyres.

But if it was so easy then Dovisioso wouldn't be last in testing, imho.

Of course, I'd like it to be gone, and yes I liked the way that the 900s really freakin' squirmed coming out of the corners electronics or not, but that's life.

[Schummy]

Originally Posted by Hazza

Of course, I'd like it to be gone, and yes I liked the way that the 900s really freakin' squirmed coming out of the corners electronics or not, but that's life.

That is not life, it's rules. The fall of a meteorite is life. FIM/Dorna can make good rules or bad rules, it can be changed one way or another.

My opinion is radical against traction control in races, in fact I am against electronic aids that supply part of a rider's skill.

I find Nicky's opinion a bit "light-headed". The remarks about carriages and horses are wrong: we *have* horse racing, we have bike racing and we *will* have whatever-electronic-vehicle races. Bike racing has not ended horse racing, and the new electronic vehicles should not end bike racing.

Technology doesn't have to change significantly old sports, it has to create new sports.

[Gerben24]

Originally Posted by Hazza

But if it was so easy then Dovisioso wouldn't be last in testing, imho.

It's funny that you picked Dovizioso, cause he has been the one that has made it look so easy in testing. His times in Sepang were very impressive and I believe Dovizioso was 5th during the 2nd day of testing, behind fellow rookie de Angelis and in front of Nicky Hayden, de Puniet and someone called Edwards (but that's not surprising is it ).

I am 100% convinced the rookies wouldn't be up there this early in the testing season if there wasn't traction control and God knows what other kind of gadget.

[chunder]

I dont believe that for a kinute really, I do think it takes a test maybe towo to get used to the speed of the bikes, but after that these guys are so talented and clever that theya re already looking for the next areas to improve.

Its what they ahve done all their lives really, 125 and 250 mavhines dont set themselves up, and the skills you learn there are already refined when you get to GP.

What I will say is that nowadays the frightner of having to be able to spin the tyre to win has gone and thats a shame, Max and Luca proved you could win riding the front, but not every race, not usually more than three or four times a year, that little step up from great rider to God has now gone.

[jhansen]

Originally Posted by Gerben24

It's funny that you picked Dovizioso, cause he has been the one that has made it look so easy in testing. His times in Sepang were very impressive and I believe Dovizioso was 5th during the 2nd day of testing, behind fellow rookie de Angelis and in front of Nicky Hayden, de Puniet and someone called Edwards (but that's not surprising is it ).

Disclaimer: Everyone in front of Hayden on Day 2 ran a qualifier.

Yeah, I think the rookies benefit. But Hayden does have a point. In the end we're still seeing the men separated from the boys come race day.

HOWEVER, I think the racing will continue to suffer for it unfortunately.

[Hazza]

Goddamn me shooting my mouth off again.

[f1manoz]

I don't like this electronic age, and certainly don't like traction and / or launch control. Makes it far too easy for the riders. They can claim it's not that easy, but anything electronic that helps the rider makes the job easier.

When it comes to traction control, all you see riders do nowadays is jam on the brakes, go through the corner, then slam on the throttle...

[Gerben24]

To see electronic gadgets in Motogp I can understand. I don't like it, but I understand (it's meant to be a prototype series, etc).

However, the superbike series is meant to be a series based on production bikes. I know us Dutch are pioneers in ground breaking technics and all that but the below should be banned with immediate effect!!!

Pictures taken during the Qatar test last week:

Wheel lift measuring device:
http://www.crash.net/picture_view_la...id~-~pid~1.htm

Active suspension:
http://www.crash.net/picture_view_la...id~-~pid~3.htm

[Gerben24]

Valentino Rossi also has an opinion:

http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/sp.../?&R=EPI-97527

He calls for a reduction or ban on electronic gadgets. I think eventually this will come, with a standard ECU, like the four wheelers will have in 2008, but by that time VR will have retired I'm affraid.

[Schummy]

If things go on this way, perhaps in three years I will be switching off the TV after 250cc, when the show of manufacturers begins.

[bestfit]

Originally Posted by Gerben24

Valentino Rossi also has an opinion:

http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/sp.../?&R=EPI-97527

He calls for a reduction or ban on electronic gadgets. I think eventually this will come, with a standard ECU, like the four wheelers will have in 2008, but by that time VR will have retired I'm affraid.

Interestingly in an interview at PI he said that without traction control the bikes, with the power they are now producing, had become too dangerous and that TC was a necessary evil.

[jhansen]

I've also heard him say that TC is good for the safety aspect. If I recall correctly, he wanted TC, but didn't like the way it was headed. Something better than no TC, but not quite as much as today. I'm sure a standard ECU is not far off as Gerben suggests.

[Schummy]

This is truly amazing. For years we had a winning formula with 500cc two-strokes, and stabilized horsepower.

Then they introduced 990cc four-strokes. The first year it was comparable to 500cc two-strokes, but progressively the new formula was suffering the "F1-inflation": yearly increase of horsepower.

They had to downsize to 800cc to maintain it in a reasonable limit. The inflation of four-strokes technology (and massive transference from auto-racing tech) is relentless, though, and now we have "too much power".

Ironically, now we need the nonsense of TC to control that amount of horsepower. Great. TC eliminate one of the main points in rider's skill.

The first priority is racing (I suppose), so the last thing to introduce is electronic aids. The first variable to touch is the formula, if they want a safe level of horsepower.

My proposition is very easy: go back to 500cc two-strokes. Well, they never will do it, let's pass to the number 2 proposition. Downsize to, say, 700c *and* limit the engine technology: standard ECU or rev limit or cylinder design or whatever.

But Dorna/FIM wants to swim in money, so they need big happy manufacturers, who, in turn, are not interested in racing (in MotoGP category). They want to sell every-day-bikes, they want to test road bike technology, they want marketing.

While Dorna wants to be drunk in money, they will not fix this, racing wise. We know what is current F1 status: most money ever, worst racing ever.

[chunder]

IN all honesty the racing in GP was only ever good a few tiems under recent 500 regulations. IN the eighties it was just Lawson and Spencer, but then you had the Rainey Gardner Schwantz era which was pretty good, then Mick and Valentino

Best year I remember was 2000, when there was no dominant rider and everyone was winning coz they didnt have Mick to chase!!

I dont think the Manufacturers in GP are quite as shallow as F1 yet, especially Ducati, they simply love their racing and have found a winning formula, rememebr in WSBK they ended up supplying half the grid at one time, tes there is money to be made there aswell, but Honda would never do that.

Single tyre rule would for me be a good thing, balances it all out a bit more and it will soon happen if Michelin dont win many races in 08.

Pirelli are globally taking over, WRC, WSBK, BSB!!

[Gerben24]

Originally Posted by Schummy

If things go on this way, perhaps in three years I will be switching off the TV after 250cc, when the show of manufacturers begins.

Schummy... Are you ready for this one... I know this might be a tough cooky to swallow, especially just for the holidays... In three years time there might not be a 250cc class anymore! I'm sorry dude.

Although I don't like the electronics either, it is not as bad (yet) as some of you guys make it sound. Remember in 2006 there was launch control and traction control but we had one of the best seasons ever. 2007 was a bit of a let down, as it was an new era again, but there were still good races. 2007 reminded me a bit of 2003 (talk about a boring season) where Honda should have won everything. I believe 2008 will be a better and 2009 better than 2008.

However, action has to be taken to ensure the rider stays the most important factor in motorcycle racing.

[jhansen]

The ironic thing about the 800cc formula is that it was never about safety. The organizers act real noble and say it was all about safety, but it wasn't. The bikes are now cornering faster than ever, which is where the real danger lies. Fast in a straight line is not dangerous. Crashing at high speed in a corner is dangerous. Given the rate of technology, leave the 800cc engines, move to a standard ECU, and get ride of launch control. There is no guarantee that the racing would improve, but at least it wouldn't get any worse.

[Schummy]

Originally Posted by chunder

IN the eighties it was just Lawson and Spencer

Surely not. What about this list: Roberts, Spencer, Lawson, Gardner, even Mamola (who won some GPs) and Rainey and Schwantz in the end. IMO, a great decade.

The first seasons of four-strokes were very good, perhaps because the technology of the new formula was not yet highly developed. In terms of "racing", I think this season we have seen some very good Stoner-Rossi races. How many Hayden-Rossi direct fights we saw last year? Probably one.

Close championship and good racing it is not the same. This year we have a historic close championship in F1, but the racing was near to inexistent.

[chunder]

I was saying that they were the guys that won the titles which is true

80 Roberts
81 Lucchinelli
82 Uncini
83 Spencer
84 Lawson
85 Spencer
86 Lawson
87 Gardner
88 Lawson
89 Lawson


Eddie and Spencer did most of the winning I think you'll agree

Yes Randy and Wayne were there and also Schwantz and Rainey to an extent later on but the eighties was really Eddie, Freddi and Gardner.

For me LAwson was the better, Freddie was the fastest from 82 to 85 and Gardner was the grinder!!

Agreed about F1, its awful, so tedious, problem was I was starting to feel the same watching GP races in 07, turned them off on numerous occasions, have never done that before!

[Gerben24]

Originally Posted by Schummy

Surely not. What about this list: Roberts, Spencer, Lawson, Gardner, even Mamola (who won some GPs) and Rainey and Schwantz in the end. IMO, a great decade.

The first seasons of four-strokes were very good, perhaps because the technology of the new formula was not yet highly developed. In terms of "racing", I think this season we have seen some very good Stoner-Rossi races. How many Hayden-Rossi direct fights we saw last year? Probably one.

Close championship and good racing it is not the same. This year we have a historic close championship in F1, but the racing was near to inexistent.

I agree about the eighties, that was my favourite decade. It might have something to do with my own age tho. When your young you experience the racing different than when your older.

I don't think the first year of 4 strokes were that good really. Seeing them slight around was great, but the racing wasn't always that good.

You also make it sound like 2006 was just between Rossi and Hayden, which it wasn't. Up until the second to last race (Portugal) Pedrosa was still in the hunt for the championship. Capirossi also wasn't that far off. 2006 was a classic I think. In the end it was a close championship, the racing was good as well and they were using electronics... (God, I miss the 990cc's).

Getting back to the topic of this thread, I think most of us agree electronics are bad, the switch to 800cc was wrong (and personally I think there should be one tyre manufacturer).

Unfortunatelly, it doesn't look like any of those items are currently on Dorna's agenda to be addressed.

[Hazza]

89 = greatest bike racing year ever.

Thread over...

wait, what were we talking about again?

[FPV GTHO]

Dorna's apparently considering a control ECU: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64454

One quote though by Ezpeleta seemed a bit odd to me

I want to get back to the situation we had in 2005, as far as the balance and the spectacle are concerned."

What was so special about 2005? It seems most among the forum feel 2006 was better for the spectacle. The only thing standing out from 2005 for me was Rossi winning in the same dominant fashion Stoner did this year.

[jhansen]

I hope that's not the case. 2006 was a better year for me in terms of the spectacle. Each race we had multiple riders with a shot at the win. I understand that Rossi is huge for our sport, but we can't build the rules around him.