Will the engine rule determine the World Champion?

[dirtymacca]

An interesting thought..... 5 races to go and it looks like Webber could be in a good position as he has 1 more engine (8 allowed without penalty) than the other title contenders......

Engine usage to date:
McLaren Mercedes
1 Jenson Button 7
2 Lewis Hamilton 7

Mercedes GP
3 Michael Schumacher 7
4 Nico Rosberg 7

RBR Renault
5 Sebastian Vettel 7
6 Mark Webber 6

Ferrari
7 Felipe Massa 8
8 Fernando Alonso 8

Williams Cosworth
9 Rubens Barrichello 6
10 Nico Hulkenberg 7

Renault
11 Robert Kubica 6
12 Vitaly Pertrov 6

Force India Mercedes
14 Adrian Sutil 7
15 Vitantonio Liuzzi 7

STR Ferrari
16 Sebastien Buemi 7
17 Jaime Alguersuari 7

Lotus Cosworth
18 Jarno Trulli 7
19 Heikki Kovalainen 7

HRT Cosworth
20 Sakon Yamamoto 7
21 Bruno Senna 7

BMW Sauber Ferrari
22 Nick Heidfeld (formerly Pedro de la Rosa’s car) 9
23 Kamui Kobayashi 7

Virgin Cosworth
24 Timo Glock 7
25 Lucas Di Grassi 7

[Another Bob]

These numbers are slightly misleading as you don't know the condition of the "used" engines.

Webber may have 6 absolutely "done" engines, whereas Alonso may may five "used" engines with plenty of races left on them yet.

[E.B]

Originally Posted by Another Bob

These numbers are slightly misleading as you don't know the condition of the "used" engines.

Webber may have 6 absolutely "done" engines, whereas Alonso may may five "used" engines with plenty of races left on them yet.

Certainly if we believe what we read then Ferrari have said all along that they have no concerns over the possibility of a 9th engine, having several good lightly used engines. As for Mark it could well be that he has a few completely stuffed ones as he has had a few engine fails in practice.

In a nutshell yes it seems that the actual engine they are on now does not really give any idea of what is in the corner of the workshop, depending on previous race usage policy. I believe that RBR generally have used their engines to the max, with ex race engines used for the next practice days until they are lifed. Clearly Ferrari seem to have gone with a policy of taking the wraps of another new one for actual races, and have changed a few low mileage ones to be safe, just for the race. Of course that does not take into consideration the reason why they felt the urge to change them on a whim in the first place, and maybe the reasons they were changed will transpire to have been valid concerns.

[phoenix]

You will find here a record of each engine identified by numbers used by each driver:

http://www.vivaf1.com/engine.php

Ferrari used new engines for both drivers at Spa (engine number 7) and again at Monza (engine number 8) - the two races hardest on engines. But so did most other teams.

Ferrari changed engines in both cars before the first race in Bahrain - so unless there is a problem with those engines they might be useful in Abu Dhabi (but I don't understand the rules, so I am uncertain why they can't use these engines again before the last race).

[TrapezeArtist]

Will the engine rule determine the World Champion?

I think what you mean is, "Will a team's inability to comply with the engine rule lose their driver the world championship?"

Ferrari look like the most likely to be in that situation at the moment, but perhaps they could just pay $100,000 to put another engine in Fernando's car.

[E.B]

Oh well, Felipe Massa gets in effect a penalty free 9th engine, by taking advantage of his last on the grid qualifying, the result of his gearbox failing and leaving him stranded in Q1.

That will also mean his Monza engine, the engine planned for Singapore, can now become a spare race engine and will no doubt help Felipe out in these final few races.

[mattt]

Originally Posted by E.B

...
That will also mean his Monza engine, the engine planned for Singapore, can now become a spare race engine and will no doubt help Felipe out in these final few races.

Not according to Martin Brundle/Jonathon Legard, who commented that the monza engine can not be used again without encurring a penalty

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by mattt

Not according to Martin Brundle/Jonathon Legard, who commented that the monza engine can not be used again without encurring a penalty

This is correct. The engine that was in Massa's car when he stopped out on track can no longer be used at any other race weekend.

As far as the current rule is concerned with regard to determining championships, this season would be far from the only one where engine reliabilty cost someone a WDC.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Marbot

This is correct. The engine that was in Massa's car when he stopped out on track can no longer be used at any other race weekend.

As far as the current rule is concerned with regard to determining championships, this season would be far from the only one where engine reliabilty cost someone a WDC.

Why is this?
What rule are you interpretting here?

[phoenix]

Originally Posted by wnut

Why is this?
What rule are you interpretting here?

I've looked it up now and it is this one:

28.4 a) Each driver may use no more than eight engines during a Championship season. Should a driver use more than eight engines he will drop ten places on the starting grid at the first Event during which
each additional engine is used. If two such additional engines are used during a single Event the
driver concerned will drop ten places on the starting grid at that Event and at the following Event.
An engine will be deemed to have been used once the car’s timing transponder has shown that it has
left the pit lane.
e) If an engine is changed in accordance with Article 34.1 the engine which was replaced may not be
used during any future qualifying session or race with the exception of the last Event of the
Championship.

34.1 is the park ferme rules, which cover the period from qualifying until the beginning of the race.

So it would seem only engines swapped after the start of qualifying and before the race can't be used again except for the last race (like the Ferrari ones in Bahrain) or for free practice on Fridays/Saturdays.

All other ''old" engines swapped earlier in the season and not covered by the parc ferme rules can be used again either in free practice and/or from the beginning of qualifying to the end of any race.

[stripedcat]

Alonso is on his last engine, right? Does he have to use the same engine for the remaining races(baring engine failure, and a 10 place grid drop)?

[phoenix]

No.

He can also use his Spa engine, which has only done one race, or any of his other 5 engines used this season EXCEPT the engine from Bahrain, which he can only use in Abu Dhabi.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by phoenix

I've looked it up now and it is this one:



34.1 is the park ferme rules, which cover the period from qualifying until the beginning of the race.

So it would seem only engines swapped after the start of qualifying and before the race can't be used again except for the last race (like the Ferrari ones in Bahrain) or for free practice on Fridays/Saturdays.

All other ''old" engines swapped earlier in the season and not covered by the parc ferme rules can be used again either in free practice and/or from the beginning of qualifying to the end of any race.

Thanks Phoenix.

Weird rule as it attracts a double penalty - grid droop and you are not allowed to use the engine changed under park ferme.
Can't see what the rule is designed to prevent, what advantage would be gained from changing an engine then?
Perhaps a fresh engine following a known bad qualifying session, with a low mileage back up for later.

[wnut]

How many engines cf. vivaf1 above

[johnh875]

I would be surprised if any drivers haven't used their 8 by now

[wnut]

Originally Posted by johnh875

I would be surprised if any drivers haven't used their 8 by now

Some haven't, all beautifully set out on the site Phoenix referenced for us:

http://www.vivaf1.com/engine.php

[Ralf's Girl]

Alonso is certainly going to have an interesting time of it, having been on engine number 8 for 4 races - presumably some of his old engines will start resurfacing for the final two rounds.

[Spritle]

Originally Posted by Ralf's Girl

Alonso is certainly going to have an interesting time of it, having been on engine number 8 for 4 races - presumably some of his old engines will start resurfacing for the final two rounds.

From the legend at the bottom of the Engine Cycle tab on the Viva F1 website:

"Key: Number of engines used (not necessarily the actual engine used for that race)"

In other words, Alonso may or may not have used the same engine the last 4 races.

[safc_fan89]

I'm surprised that Alonso is running as many laps in qualifying as he is. You'd think he might do what Vettel did from time to time last season and run the minimum amount possible.

[E.B]

Vettel actually ran a reduced programme on the Saturday of Korea, due to the high mileage of the engine fitted for the Saturday and race, which already had two races on it.

Im actually wondering whether perhaps it is a side effect of their more developed blown diffuser, which we have been told previously will potentially take more out of an engine due to the mapping they have to do to 'feed' the blown diffuser with exhaust gasses on the over run.

Could we perhaps see the blown diffuser 'turned down a bit' for the next races, to save the engines undue stress and enhance the reliability. Was Seb's engine failure due to him having to turn the engine up? Alonso had immediately prior to the failure taken a chunk out of Seb's lead and Seb had responded with a time quick enough to stem Alonso's closing further.

I guess my suggestion means that potentially the RBR's may both run the next two GP's at less than 100% and lose some of their cornering advantage derived from their blown diffuser, chasing a bit more reliability, knowing any further DNF's will blow any hope they have of both titles?

[phoenix]

Originally Posted by Spritle

"Key: Number of engines used (not necessarily the actual engine used for that race)"

In other words, Alonso may or may not have used the same engine the last 4 races.

Well spotted - which could mean that Alonso has already used the engine that did Germany, or the engine that did Belgium again since, rather than using the same engine at every race since Italy.

[Ralf's Girl]

Originally Posted by Spritle

From the legend at the bottom of the Engine Cycle tab on the Viva F1 website:

"Key: Number of engines used (not necessarily the actual engine used for that race)"

In other words, Alonso may or may not have used the same engine the last 4 races.

Good spot - shame they're not tracking that though, it would be interesting to see how many consecutive races engines are being used for. Not sure whether all the teams will necessarily release that information though?

Originally Posted by safc_fan89

I'm surprised that Alonso is running as many laps in qualifying as he is. You'd think he might do what Vettel did from time to time last season and run the minimum amount possible.

Vettel has an astounding ability to dive out of the pits at the last minute, have one go and nail the perfect lap - he's better at that than any other driver I can recall. Not many drivers to that, so perhaps that style just wouldn't work for Alonso.

[strider]

Originally Posted by Ralf's Girl

Vettel has an astounding ability to dive out of the pits at the last minute, have one go and nail the perfect lap - he's better at that than any other driver I can recall. Not many drivers to that, so perhaps that style just wouldn't work for Alonso.

What Ferrari are doing, however, is run the engines to a lower rev limit on Fridays in order to preserve them. This has been their practice for a while now. It makes you wonder why they're so slow, but that's the reason.