What were Super Saloons made from?

[allenbrown]

Slugs and snails and puppydogs' tails?

I found these in adverts today while looking for a Chevron:

* Jimmy Robertson offers his title-winning Skoda based on a March 74S with a 3.4-litre Ford GA V6 (Autosport 15 Nov 1979)

* Doug Niven offers his 47 race winning VW Beetle based on a 5-litre Trojan T101-Chev V8 (15 Nov 1979)

* Jim Price offers his ex-Jim Evans Skoda Coupe based on a Chevron B19 formerly with a FVC (22 Nov 1979)

What other long-lost racing cars were hidden within these beasts?

Allen

[Al Weyman]

That, (IMHO) is what ruined the formula.

[davemorganfan]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

That, (IMHO) is what ruined the formula.

Agreed. The great thing about about Super Saloons as originally "conceived" was the sheer ingeniuty of the cars. Taking a pukka racing car, throwing away the bodywork and plonking an approximately saloon car-shaped body on top made it all too easy to produce a competitive car, and one that had no real relationship with the road car equivalent.

[allenbrown]

I see where you're coming from. In 1978, I spotted a Chevron B21-based superloon and also a Chevron B23-based one, both being advertised by AET, IIRC.

Allen

[Alan Raine]

It did get a bit silly when they were just sticking a different body on a sports car like a Chevron or the like but they were still fun to watch.

Most of the bespoke cars were home built and tended to use parts from existing cars. I think the suspension on Mick Hills Capri came from a Lola T70 for example. It was how they put them together and how the looked that was the ingenious bit.

[Speedy norm]

I cannot understand why we go misty eyed by the memory of these cars but I must admit I am guilty of it also. I just loved the era and was fortunate to see Baby Bertha and co. However I detect a negative vibe above, is it that many historic, priceless cars eg Chevron B19 Lola T70 were canabalised to construct these cars? At the time (early to mid seventies) these cars were worthless and obsolete I recently saw a Chevron B19 for sale with spare Richardson FVC for £3,000....... Before you rush for your checque books it was a 1976 Autosport!

[simon drabble]

to put that into perspective a 246 Dino was about £5k in 76 so if you consider that a 246 is now about £60k and a Chevron is about £60-100k depending on history etc.. so they have gone up but they are still relatively cheap when compared to say GT40's or Cobra's or Bizzarini's...

[Alan Raine]

Originally Posted by Speedy norm

I cannot understand why we go misty eyed by the memory of these cars.

Cos the good ones were big, fast and very noisy!!!!

[allenbrown]

Indeed, the three most important criteria for a racing car, IMHO

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by Speedy norm

However I detect a negative vibe above, is it that many historic, priceless cars eg Chevron B19 Lola T70 were canabalised to construct these cars?

Hypothetical question for everyone.

Suppose you've just stumbled on a old Super Saloon in a barn in desperate need of restoration. Assume here of course that you have the funds, do you..

A) keep and resore as a Super Saloon
B) ditch the body and restore the Chevron/Lola chassis

[simon drabble]

I would like to take the moral high ground and say A but in reality it will always be B - but you feel very bad about it!!!

[davemorganfan]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

I would like to take the moral high ground and say A but in reality it will always be B - but you feel very bad about it!!!

Oddly enough, I might be tempted to take option A (strike me down God, bearing in mind what I said earlier). There's no great shortage of decent Lolas and Chevrons these days, but how many of the likes of the "Chimp" do we see?

[davyboy]

It would always be B. The silhouettes on top of F2, F5000 single seaters went all the way through the 1980s as well. Remember all those 'Lotus Esprits' with centrally seated drivers ? Super Saloons were at their best when the builders had to work around the existing shell of the car.

[Alan Raine]

Originally Posted by redshoes

A) keep and resore as a Super Saloon
B) ditch the body and restore the Chevron/Lola chassis

Depends what it was originally and what it ended up as!

Davyboy is right - Super Saloons were at their best when the builders had to work around the existing shell of the car. Ian Richardsons Corvair was a superb piece of engineering and panel beating.

[Al Weyman]

I just for the life of me could not see the point of these reclad single seaters and sports cars, what were they all about, most odd. Better surely to just race the cars as they wereoriginally designed oh and on prices I was once haggling for a genuine Lola T70 without engine (I wanted it for a road car) and we got to £750 and nearly closed the deal I just needed to raise the funds but unfortunately the vendor ( I like to think of him as a friend) sadly died in a racing accident before I could finalise.

[Alan Raine]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

I just for the life of me could not see the point of these reclad single seaters and sports cars, what were they all about, most odd

As I said earlier - the good ones were big, fast and noisy.

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Better surely to just race the cars as they wereoriginally designed

Because at the time there wasn't as many places to race them and they weren't worth anything like they are now. Many of the early cars only used parts that were sourced from T70's and the like (not the whole car) and a lot of those were from wrecks. It was only later that they did body transplants which did tend to spoil it a bit.

I thought in their short heyday they were great. Big tail happy cars with a few good drivers who were prepared to put on a show!

[Bryan Miller]

Allen,

2 cars I know about , 1 is a Modus that was converted with a Lotus bodyshell , I have photo's somewhere , this was then restored back to it's F/Atlantic spec.

The other is a ''pet'' project that I posted seperately on about 2 years ago, was a Chevron B21/B23 bodywork [ even had old BOAC 1000 stickers inside body] installed on a plated chassis , except the Chevron body didn't fit as it was too wide , so outriggers had been made to support body, it was running an FT200 and 2.0 litre BD? .
The strange thing was that the originall chassis had full width, behind the drivers and passengers backs, a very expensive alloy fuel tank , with cut out for central gearchange with the remains of bracketry on the floor for the gearlever , this had been re-positioned to near drivers hand on top rail .
The car came to Western Australia late 1970's after being purchased from Lodge Corner Agencies, where suposedly it used to have a Skoda bodywork .
The car was no pile of junk , had been a good thing , but I have never been able to figure out what it used to be in a previous life , possibly something like a Lotus 23B , Meryln etc. with the centre section plated like a Chevron , I had the forlorn hope it may have been a Chevron B16 and then I could buy it and rescue it.
The car was on 10.0'' front Chevron wheels and 12.0'' Minilite rears. Please tell me what it was.???
Bryan.

[JimW]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

I just for the life of me could not see the point of these reclad single seaters and sports cars, what were they all about, most odd. . . . .

What they delivered was damm good racing. Those races were almost always exciting and attention getting in a way too few are today. If they were built on other cars then it was a good way for them to develop.

And it would be great if Super Saloons came back.

Regards

Jim

[Al Weyman]

Yes I agree, as modified steel production shells as they were before the plonk a plastic body on a formula car central driving position brigade took over.

[JimW]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Yes I agree, as modified steel production shells as they were before the plonk a plastic body on a formula car central driving position brigade took over.

On the contrary Al. It was the underlying single seaters with big engines and racing car performance dressed out in plastic bodyshells which had some resemblance to saloons which made the racing so good.

Jim

[Al Weyman]

Its a personal thing I guess but these cars did nothing for me, cars that looked like cars and were based on real cars were more my scene regardless of outright performance which is all relative anyhow the same as watching a good CTRCC race can be more exciting than an F1 at times (usually) but the overall times are way way slower.

[simon drabble]

I agree with JimW - the more outrageous they were the better they were and as a child I remmber watching them at Silverstone. However due to the value of the underlying donor cars and the running costs of DFV's etc its unlikely that they will ever come back

[Al Weyman]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

However due to the value of the underlying donor cars and the running costs of DFV's etc its unlikely that they will ever come back

That is a very good point and all the more reason to get back to the basics, pre-plastic body on Formula car era, i.e steel shells with big v8s stuffed in them .

[Scoggy]

Wasn't that why Thunderloons became so popular as the Supers waned (sp)? Only saw a few Wendy Wools S/Saloon races, they were good while they lasted.

Maybe worthy of another thread about the mighty Vauxhal Senator, Rob Cox's (?) black Prelude and I seem to remember a Sierra with a 956 engine shoe-horned into it?

[Tim Wilkinson]

Have a search for Thundersaloons, Scoggy - there's a couple of good long threads about them somewhere on the forum.

I'm pretty sure the Wendy Wools was still going strong a few years after Thundersaloons had been started - I saw a race on the Brands GP in either '89 (supporting the F3?) or '90, and the field seemed pretty full. I was only 10 or 11, tho, and was unaware of the underlying machinery; the field may have been bolstered by some less exotic stuff.