FIA tin-tops

[MGDavid]

Rather than add to the 21 Spa pages (!) I thought I'd start anew - where can I find out more on 'Carol's new series' - possibly called U2TC - for under 2 litre FIA saloons ?
TIA.

[simon drabble]

try contacting her direct... Historic Motor Racing News if you google that it will direct you to her website and there should be a contact details on that. Having chatted with her at Spa it seems that its pretty straightforwad. Sub 2 litre pre 66 saloons with Appendix K FIA papers. If your car fits that title its in if it doesnt chances are its not!!
What car are you looking to race?

[john ruston]

The first race for the cars is France 6/11 incorporated in various Gentleman drivers races

[simon drabble]

at Magny Cours - its a 3 hour race and should be great fun sadly I have a commitment on the Saturday which makes this weekend unfeasable

[zefarelly]

3 hours at Magny Cours, wow.

Dijon would be better, lovely circuit, and I've just entered the WHT that weekend. oh well, maybe next year

[zefarelly]

as it stands if you have an FiA tin top you can race

CTCRC
HRSR
FiA
Top Hat
U2TC
6 hour

and arguably your eligible ( if not welcome) for other enduro series, it seems saloons competed quite regularly in the day, but not so much now


theres plenty of choice for us, and a varied level of preparation tolerance as well !

[MGDavid]

thanks all, that's all good info, I'll be passing details on to the owner. It's a 1964 FIA Anglia, you will have seen it in Top Hat if you were at Mallory last weekend.

[simon drabble]

how do the Anglia's fare in FIA guise - that means 1200cc presumably? what weight can you run them?

[zefarelly]

is it a sky blue one

it'll run 1200cc, twin choke down draught Weber ( std 1500 GT) and cosworth style prep will get you about 115 BHP. not sure what homologated weight is, probably around 700 KG ???

reasonably quick, not sure how it would compare against a genuine 63 prepped mini as I've never seen one !!!

[James Murray]

are most of the mini's out there iffy as they always seem to be up there at the front which surely wasn't the case in the day. I know thety were fast but surely not that fast. I saw the lap record at goodwood was held by one until recently which appears strange as I thought goodwood was a power circuit!

I can never seem to understand the saloon rules it seems to be a mine field of what you can and can't do. Surely if the FIA rules were adopted accross the board with HSCC, Top Hat, Spa 6 Hrs goodwood etc everyone would know where they stand.

[SZRacer]

I think the problem is one of principles versus reality/pragmatism.

While most race promoters would like to be as principled as possible, there is always a trade-off.

In Goodwood's case the trade-off is between a 'level playing field' versus 'putting on a show' for the 100,000 paying spectators. Hence, in the past. cars like the Alvis Grey Lady, and various other 'hooky' cars.

For other promoters, there is always a point where they will turn more of a blind eye to marginal cars if they look like they won't have full grids and therefore recoup their investment!

Personally, it's frustrating. I have a 100% FIA legal car, with 135bhp, which is pretty much the absolute maximum you can safely squeeze out of a 'kosher' 1300cc Alfa twincam, but I know of several Alfa '1300s' running with 1400cc or even 1500cc kits, 1600cc Alfas with 1750cc engines, and so on.

A common trick in Alfa engines, which have always had a more archaic design bore and stroke-wise compared to the Lotus 'copy' , is to use the more recent '80s 'New' Giulietta engine, which is 1357cc, and being less oversquare, can rev to 9000rpm happily. There are a LOT of cars with this trick engine!!

On the other hand, I know I have the satisfaction of running a 100% honest car, and driving it as best I can. After all, you're only cheating yourself, as they say!

Mind oyu, if I ever do get another Goodwood entry in the SZ, I'm ordering my 3.2l Alfa V6 - will it fit?

Regards,

James W

Originally Posted by James Murray

I can never seem to understand the saloon rules it seems to be a mine field of what you can and can't do. Surely if the FIA rules were adopted accross the board with HSCC, Top Hat, Spa 6 Hrs goodwood etc everyone would know where they stand.

[John Turner]

As a spectator, I, too find the various rules and classes of saloon cars confusing, and there is no doubt that certain cars are substantially quicker that they could have ever been with period mods. On the other hand, I love to see cars like the Alvis Grey Lady going quckly, so maybe there should be a 'silhouette' formula for some of these 50's and early 60's cars where their modifications are deemed beyond what is appropriate for the more 'original' or 'standard' categories.

[simon drabble]

James you are absolutely correct about making everything FIA spec and hopefully that will eventually happen. In the cas of teh HSCC the committee of the HRSR (the saloons) all have oversized engines. We did get them banned at one point but the committee changed and the ban was over ruled! Amazing but true!!

[zefarelly]

I went to that meeting and certain over preppers where lobbying to get people to attend and vote, effectively overturning a previous decision and alienating a lot of historically accurate cars in the process. the HRSR continues to be very well supported and organised, just not my cup of tea because of the rules. it'll be interesting to see how things pan out with other series and International rules as to whether those kind of cars become alienated from the majority.

Time will tell

for me the simple fact that sticking to App K means I can race virtually anywhere is the deciding factor.

[James Murray]

I thought HSCC was FIA spec until recently. Is it basically anything goes then or are there some general rules? Do they all run the same tyres?

I thought the guy in the metallic blue anglia was going fast!!

[simon drabble]

Dan Cox is a good driver but be under no illusions that car is a hot rod! All anglia's run 1500 engines. The one concession HRSR have is that they run Dunlop Section M tyres but that is where FIA similarities end!! The Alfa's run 2 litre engines. There is an FIA class which Rob Hartley and a few others contest but its no more than 2-3 people in it. Its a great shame as HSCC have great meetings but its not so enticing to run with hotrods!

[MGDavid]

the one I drove is a very pale buey-green (I *think*, 'cos I'm a bit sight colour deficient) and it's relatively slow, but it IS genuine FIA, absolutely no tricks at all AFAIK.

[James Murray]

This is a guess on my part as not too familiar with closed wheel stuff but all the extra mods do is put the cost sky high and make all the cars 2 or 3 seconds a lap faster? If FIA rules were adopted the results would be the same wouldn't they, based on the assumption the same cars would be at the front hot rodded or FIA spec. Eg Lotus Cortina, Mustang, Jag would always be the car to have if you wanted to win, whatever the rules.

Is it the same situation with the sports cars or are they all FIA cars in the hscc classic sports cars series in accordance with FIA pre 65 GT series?

[simon drabble]

classic sports car is FIA only. I race my Merlyn sportsracer in that series - good races - pity that we are invitation only class so get bumped off for Brands GP meeting tho!

[James Murray]

the sports racers look like fun simon and you can race them all over the place.
Consequently they've shot up in value over last few years. Its a shame theres no series for them in hscc. Do you think if they put on 3 or 4 1hr 2 driver 50/60's sports car races each year they would get grids or are there too many races already? The 3hr race at Brands Superprix was always well supported although that was for pre 65 fia saloons and sports cars as well.

[simon drabble]

there is talk of there being a 6 Hour at the Silverstone Classic into the evening for 50/60's sportsracers. I am very confidant that any 1 hour race for sportsracers would be oversubscribed
Brands Super Prix 3 Hours would be awesome - where do I send the money!!!!

re values you are right but most historic racers have increased in value (thank goodness as that is the basis of justification to the Mrs!!)

[James Murray]

I can see it now! "Lotus 23 eligible for Spa 6hrs, Silversone Classic 6hrs, Brands Hatch 3hrs plus many other prestigious historic events, excellent condition and potential winner, £120.000.00." Are you still considering historic ff simon?

[simon drabble]

there you go - that certainly works for me! I am - but also interested in historic S2000 and tin tops but I have to see what I am allowed to play with. In reality I think that S2000 or tin tops will win the day as my wife has a thing about open wheel cars. I did bid for an Alexis but my bid was turned down by the owner - pity as it was a pretty car but I have since found out hard to win anything in (lack of talent aside!!!!)

[zefarelly]

som HRSR saloons are so extreme they wouldn't get a race anywhere else, except maybe classic thunder

I think FiA rules makes closer racing because it closes the gap between cars performance

at the moment the FiA series only really gets the favourite cars, LC's, Mustangs, GTA's, minis. etc

other FiA 'style' series have a bit more variation, like my GT etc, we get good racing, but there are still over prepped cars with or without papers

[HMRN]

U2TC will be for cars as they ran in the 1963-65 European Touring Car Championship. The idea is to cater for owners who don't want to heavily modify their cars, but who still want to be competitive. They will look like period cars too. All cars will run on M-section Dunlops or earlier tread pattern. We will post regs on the Historic Motor Racing News web site soon.

The nice thing about all these Touring Car series is that there is something for everyone and those who want to race every weekend will always find a place to race. Makes buying and maintaining a Touring Car worthwhile.

Carol from HMRN