Front engined LMPs......

IanGrohse · 4 Mar 2003, 05:02 (Ref:524136)

What inherent strengths and weaknessness are present in front engined protos like Panoz.....

gttouring · 4 Mar 2003, 14:37 (Ref:524519)

from what i understand Mike has a thing on this somewhere, or was that something else...(try panoz or imsa website)Well The panoz has most of its weight still in the middle, it is front/mid engined, the driver is closer to the rear axle, i hear this gives them better fel of the rear end and what it will do, the 'traditional'car lay out benefits the drivers perspective or something-i guess this isn't much help, At Road america I was spinning a midengined 914 all over, but when it came to the miata i stormed allover with out a trouble, some wiggles but..

MulsanneMike · 4 Mar 2003, 15:42 (Ref:524561)

I don't pretend to be an expert on the inherent benefits of a front engine car, but I have a few comments here:

http://www.mulsannescorner.com/panozlmp1.html

KC · 4 Mar 2003, 16:55 (Ref:524602)

From what I have read there were numerous engineerring challenges to overcome.

One that took a while was developing a drive shaft (propshaft) that can last for 24 hours and still be lightweight.

Another challenge was attaining the aerodynamic efficiency of a mid-rear car in the front area of the under tray with the engine in the way.

Another was channelling heat away from the driver's compartment. Basically the driver's legs are very close to the exhaust headers. Same problem experienced in mid-60s Cobras and the latest Corvette C5Rs.

I am sure there are many more.

Tim Northcutt · 4 Mar 2003, 18:29 (Ref:524686)

Getting proper balance on a front-engined car seems the most obvious to me, even if it is fairly close to being a mid-engined car...

There is a company (the name escapes me, but I'll get it for you) tha tmakes carbon fiber shafts that are probably used on the Panoz....incredibly strong and torque resistant...Dan Gurney's Toyota team used them....

H16 · 4 Mar 2003, 19:22 (Ref:524723)

The problems with sticking an engine in the front include raising the frontal area, having the driver and rool hoop protection just behind the rear wing, which further disruptes the airflow, and it also limits your front aerodynamics somewhat. I can't imagine and Bentley or Toyota GT1 nose on a Panoz.

The LMP 07 was a geuine attempt to have a very modern and ground breaking front engined machine. The problems of the car were numerous, from cooling to aero properties to reliability, and the problem lied in the fact that the Zytek was proabably better suited to a rear engined single seater acting as a stressed member rather than being put infront of the driver in a sports car. The LMP07 with the Mugen had less reliability problems but were no more competitive, the approach Mugen took didn't make up well with the chassis, and I always thought that the car, particurally on its debut at Sebring, looked like it was superglued together.

As tunnels come back in force, Panoz will either have to build a rear engined machine, go to GTS/GT, or put the engine and driver waaaaaay to the back to allow proper tunnels. I think that a front engined car could be built with tunnels, but it would be a headache and perhaps not very competitive.

MulsanneMike · 4 Mar 2003, 20:10 (Ref:524779)

I don't see any reason a front engine car couldn't be designed within the '04 regulations as the tunnels start barely forward of the rear wheels. I haven't looked at it that hard, but the shallow height of the tunnels and the fact that their leading edge start well rearward wouldn't lead me to beleive that it would cause any more technical issues.

pirenzo · 4 Mar 2003, 20:13 (Ref:524783)

But having cockpit so near the back, must surely leave you a bit pushed for space for the suspension/wheels

MulsanneMike · 4 Mar 2003, 20:16 (Ref:524786)

"But having cockpit so near the back, must surely leave you a bit pushed for space for the suspension/wheels "

Not any less than current rules. In fact, with the '04 overhang regulations, you should have a much longer wheelbase and therefore even more room to place the cockpit.

H16 · 4 Mar 2003, 20:21 (Ref:524792)

This raises another question. While I haven't heard anything 100%, the feeling is that coupes will be on equal footing and may be the prefered choice in the new regulations. Part of the reason that Panoz built the LMP1 from the GTR1 was because the greenhouse was so close to the rear wing, it couldn't overcome the design flaws against cars like the Toyota GT1.

BSchneiderFan · 4 Mar 2003, 20:37 (Ref:524810)

Front-engined cars have, and perforce always will have, cooling problems. An 8-litre V10 (listening, Dodge?) is a hot lump of metal, and all the heat comes the car's way, instead of trailing out behind it.

karbon · 4 Mar 2003, 20:48 (Ref:524824)

i think i read it in le mans & sportscar racing magazine (r.i.p.) that the temperature in the cockpit of a 'vette can reach 160 degrees.

Sean Crockett · 4 Mar 2003, 23:34 (Ref:525054)

I'm sure if say Toyota got it into their heads that for marketing reasons they needed to build a front engined prototype, all the problems would be resolved (at a cost of course!). It's just unfortunate that Panoz are unable (or unwilling) to make that sort of investment.

As for the tunnels etc., while I am not up on the 2004 rules, I'm sure if an engine could be designed with these rules in mind, many of the problems would disapear; unfortunately, most current racing engines are designed with a rear location in mind, and other criteria governing the overall 'shape'.

gttouring · 6 Mar 2003, 05:18 (Ref:526303)

well cockpit cool can be over come using various methods from peltier element cooling and even an electric A/c if need be. The 8Litre hot hunk of metal in front causing problems? The vipers did win daytona 24 hrs. and I have never seen a proper viper bow up (the Oreca team) and for that matter the 7 Litre Corvettes are fairly strong, as hot as they get I believe these are good examples of front engined magic. a good look and set up.

RacingManiac · 6 Mar 2003, 06:05 (Ref:526327)

Not only Daytona 24, also Nurburgring 24 and Spa 24 I believe, and 3 GTS win in a row at Le Mans as well...Viper is pretty "alright" if you ask me...

BSchneiderFan · 6 Mar 2003, 14:18 (Ref:526616)

Oh, the Viper is/was good, no question, but I think if you were designing from scratch, you'd do what McLaren and Saleen did, and drop the engine behind the cockpit.

gttouring · 6 Mar 2003, 14:48 (Ref:526636)

even if you redesigned a car from scracth- the midengined assault of Saleen and Maclaren have not fared as well as the Viper or Vettes, so a good designed seems to be a good design no matter where you put the engine-the Maclarens are beauties, but those ther two fronties- oh man

IanGrohse · 6 Mar 2003, 20:14 (Ref:526956)

Well......At least in terms of Saleen...its not a matter of design so much as it is you are comparing 2 of the largest car companies int he world's capabilities to some start up supercar maker. Theres the differnce.

ZXKawboy · 6 Mar 2003, 20:48 (Ref:527001)

An engine design for front engined LMP car? Gee...I dunno. Porsche sure seemed to have a grand ol' piston-popper with the flat-6/8/12 designs of years gone by (with the exception of the flat-6 that is still current).

I dunno..am I wrong?

Laters, all

Splatz the Cow · 10 Mar 2003, 05:45 (Ref:530942)

The original Panoz had a weight distribution of almost exactly 50/50.

The Panoz's advantages were in corner entry and getting the power down at places like Road Atlanta. Where the car squashes on the suspension out of 90deg corners.

This is aided also by the increased driver feel of the grip on the road, as he is so close to the back wheel.

The weight on the front wheels can be taken advantage of when needing extra turn in which seems to help in the rain.

I'm sure more development can be done on this car, and I hope it will provide inspiration for future Panoz prototypes.

Splatz the Cow · 10 Mar 2003, 05:59 (Ref:530946)

The argument of front versus rear was answered in 1996 and 1997.

In the BPR series McLaren ran rings around the front engined Viper even though the Viper had around 50bhp and 100ftlbs more.

So in 1997 the Viper dropped from GT1 to GT2 level, and it was the front engined Panoz that received a battering from McLaren and of course Mercedes.
There was really no comparison between.

If a McLaren were entered now in GTS, were it to meet the upcoming specifications, there is no doubt it would repeat those past dominant performances. Again there is no comparison between the dinosauric chassis and suspension designs of the Viper, Vette, Saleen and F550.

When comparing old track times from LM and others, its important to remember changes to layout, resurfacing, regulations, and tyre performance, to name a few.

The future of GTS will be the Zonda, F550 and Saleen though, and not Corvette or Viper.

BSchneiderFan · 10 Mar 2003, 12:12 (Ref:531234)

Slightly off the point - shunt this if you like - but could anyone run a McLaren in, say, the ALMS or the FIA GT series? Although ageing, I'm willing to bet it would be fast. Is it wildly out of the rules, or could it be done?

**Aysedasi** · 10 Mar 2003, 12:46 (Ref:531267)

Quote:

Originally posted by gttouring
the midengined assault of Saleen and Maclaren have not fared as well as the Viper or Vettes

Like Splatz above, I'd take issue with you over that statement......

(I'm talking of the McLaren of course - the Saleen isn't in the same league...)

pirenzo · 10 Mar 2003, 13:33 (Ref:531333)

Well if they can make all the spares, i think that the McLaren is still partially legal ie some bits are illegal, but the vast majority are legal. Smaller restrictors would be needed, as well as slight shortening of that long tail, but other than that, it's fine. The was talk a couple of years ago that someone might race one in the Daytona 24hrs, but i'm not sure whether that happened in the end or not.

BSchneiderFan · 10 Mar 2003, 13:36 (Ref:531342)

I remember the rumour of the McLaren at Daytona. I don't think anything came of it. But a couple of Porsche 911 GT1s DID run, as I recall.

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