Which drivers belong into a real World Touring Car Championship?

Robbe · 19 Aug 2009, 16:15 (Ref:2524455)

In the BTCC Knockhill topic there was the discussion about Giovanardi, Priaulx, Yvan Muller and how their talent and championships can be compared. Since some not all of them are in WTCC, it's obviously hard to compare.

In the Supertouring era, we only had national series, as a result, top drivers like Rydell and Alzen never raced against each other. This has changed now, so most of the drivers have raced against each other. There are a few exceptions, of course, and very often the drivers couldn't fight for victory because of their material (just look at Thompson now).

So I had the idea to put together our virtual field of top-touringcardrivers of this era.

Some are no-brainers of course, I'd name Priaulx, Giovanardi, Yvan Muller, Thompson; and some will be named pretty often aswell, like Plato, Huff, Farfus, Tarquini.

But I'd like to know how you could compare a Richard Göransson to Jan Magnussen, a Mat Jackson to Rickard Rydell and how you think Rob Collard would behave in a close fight with Flash Nilsson and Felix Porteiro - and if they would belong into a real WTCC field?

BootsOntheSide · 19 Aug 2009, 18:55 (Ref:2524538)

I only really see BTCC and WTCC, although I believe that (as with Superbikes0 the British series is second only to the World one (assuming we don't class DTM as Touring Cars). There are certainly guys in other championships (including DTM, sports cars and single-seaters) who could make the cut if given the chance.

I think most of the BMW/SEAT/Chevy works guys in WTCC have proven themselves time and again - only Hernandez and Portiero are even debatable.

Gio has showed that BTCC standards are a little below the Worlds - partly by so comfortably beating Neal as a team-mate, and partly by having so much less contact and complaint than any other front-runner. Plato, Turkington and Thompson are the guys who seem able to challenge him in comparable machinery. Jackson is hard to place as he's struggled at times this year, but his 2008 achievements in a private team make me think he'd make the cut too. Shedden and Jones are maybes, while Johnny Adam and Andy Jordan have the potential.

Collard would probably behave as badly as ever against other solid journeyman drivers...

werner · 19 Aug 2009, 19:08 (Ref:2524545)

Let me dream up a field:

BMW:
-Andy Priaulx
-Jorg Muller
-Luca Rangoni
-Huisman
-Magnussen

Alfa Romeo
-Colciago
-Giovanardi
-Thompson

Seat
-Yvan Muller
-Tarquini
-Rydell
-Coronel
-Ekstrom

Chevrolet
-Huff
-Menu
-Plato

Volvo
-Dahlgren
-Turkington

Honda
-Bjork
-Nykaer
-Bleekemolen

Shoot!

helterskelter · 19 Aug 2009, 23:45 (Ref:2524716)

This is my own list. It goes without saying that criticism is more than welcome!
BMW
- Andy Priaulx
- Sergio Hern�*ndez
- Colin Turkington
- Luca Rangoni (Thed Bjork)
- Félix Porteiro
SEAT
- Yvan Muller
- James Thompson
- Jason Plato
- Tom Coronel
- Roberto Colciago
- (Norbert Michelisz)
Alfa Romeo
- Fabrizio Giovanardi
- Alessandro Balzan
- Gianni Morbidelli
Chevrolet
- Rob Huff
- Michel Nykjaer
- Max Pedal�*
Volvo
- Rickard Rydell
- Robert Dahlgren
Honda
- Oliver Jarvis
- Fredrik Ekblom
Lada
- Jaap van Lagen
- Thed Bjork
- Mattias Andersson

Most of the time I counted the 'links' to the existing manufacturers in putting the drivers with a specific manufacturer. In order to prevent anyone from asking me the reasons why I put some unexpected drivers, here are the reasons: M.Andersson is doing great in the Stcc, considering that he's a one car team and that he has a very old car in his hands. Max Pedal�* is a Leòn Eurocup driver, don't know if all of you know him, but he's damn fast and normally very consistent. Alessandro Balzan was 4th in a privateer Alfa in Monza, run by Clever Cats, and outpaced Morbidelli and Tavano, i seem to recall it was 2003. He's currently leading the Italian Porsche Cup, fighting with some Luca Rangoni! I put in Sergio and Félix because of what they've done in the independents class, they seem very talented to me.

werner · 20 Aug 2009, 07:02 (Ref:2524814)

Pedala has had some wtcc-experience, IIRC in 2007 in the Italian importer-backed Seat. I don't remember him setting the world on fire. It is beyond me that you not only give him a spot, but the spot that now is in the hands of Alain Menu, whom I rate in the top 5. (2x btcc-champion, in the most competitive decade, 9 wins so far in the WTCC, in the car that imo he had a great part in developing it)
Same story for Balzan, although it is hard for me to estimate his current performance.

helterskelter · 20 Aug 2009, 09:12 (Ref:2524891)

Quote:

Originally Posted by werner

Pedala has had some wtcc-experience, IIRC in 2007 in the Italian importer-backed Seat. I don't remember him setting the world on fire. It is beyond me that you not only give him a spot, but the spot that now is in the hands of Alain Menu, whom I rate in the top 5. (2x btcc-champion, in the most competitive decade, 9 wins so far in the WTCC, in the car that imo he had a great part in developing it)
Same story for Balzan, although it is hard for me to estimate his current performance.

Alain Menu is having a hard season, too many mistakes this year IMO and Huffy is now more competitive IMO. But, if we all ageed, this forum wouldn't even make sense!

Of course Alain is a top driver, but Max is younger and surely talented, and I believe he could do very well. Remember that, with SEAT Sport Italia, he was not a works driver and the guy who tested was always Colciago, as he was the real 'works' driver, though they entered the championship as independants. Anyway, Max was just slightly off Colciago's pace, which I found great, especially knowing that Roberto is a superfast driver and he has plenty of experience in SuperT. I'd like to see him in a works car (at his 2nd year, not his debut season), I believe he would be competitive. Maybe it's because I've seen him race live on track and I've seen the way he drives and how consistent he is in the one-make series he's been competing in.
Alessandro Balzan was 4th in an independant AR 156, in 2006, and as I was saying before he was faster than most of the works cars with a privately-backed team. I find that impressive. He never had much of a chance to show his talent internationally, but here in Italy we rate him very highly as he's been in our national Superstars Series and did well in an old and too heavy car, the Jaguar, and was champion in our National AR 147 Cup opening season, against very highly rated drivers and with 2 races to go, if I remember correctly.

stedevil · 21 Aug 2009, 10:01 (Ref:2525452)

Quote:

Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide

I only really see BTCC and WTCC, although I believe that ... the British series is second only to the World one

Make no mistake, the top drivers in DTC and STCC is right up there as well on talent

. Eg Göransson beat out Plato for the ETCcup crown back in 2005. Combined with 3xSTCC championships and class victories in eg Nürnberg 24h and the 2008ETCcup duel with Nykaer I'm in fact a bit surprised he is missing from both Werners and Helterskelters list. In any case, these lists are very hard to make. Just look eg at the 2 latest newcomers to rock the boat, Bennani and Michelisz. Nobody knew who they even were and BAM they are right up there in the top 10 kicking butt.

werner · 21 Aug 2009, 14:31 (Ref:2525578)

To be honest, when I wrote Bjork, I was doubting to name either him or Ekblom or Goranson. Dahlgren looks to be very, very fast, but he seems not to be able to stay out of troubles. Maybe he is comparable to Farfus.

stedevil · 21 Aug 2009, 18:33 (Ref:2525693)

Dahlgren has had "problems" eg covering the inside of a corner (and being mighty surprised whenever a quicker car behind was trying to pass there). But I think (hope?) he finally learned to avoid that. Other than that he is not very crash prone, and his lack of points this year is more due to the car having technical problems.

As for whom of Björk/Göransson/Ekblom, that is a very though choise. I regard them all to be top class drivers that would do well in WTCC. If I would have to pick only 1 I probably would pick Björk as well, the motivation being that he is quick in anything from the first time he drives it. RWD, FWD, if it has 4 wheels or 2 wheels, it doesnt matter, he is just quick.

Icebaby · 21 Aug 2009, 19:24 (Ref:2525708)

From the BTCC I would say-

James Thompson
Jason Plato
Fabrizo Giovanardi
Colin Turkington
Paul O'Neill

gregc · 21 Aug 2009, 21:16 (Ref:2525748)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Icebaby

From the BTCC I would say-

James Thompson
Jason Plato
Fabrizo Giovanardi
Colin Turkington
Paul O'Neill

Glad I'm not the only one who rates Owy as world class (I'd agree with the rest, too) - what he's done this year with an old car has been truly outstanding. It's not just that he's been quick, but his overtaking has been superb - ultra clean but very effective. I've always liked him, but this year he has shown himself to be absolutely top drawer.

helterskelter · 21 Aug 2009, 22:06 (Ref:2525765)

Quote:

Originally Posted by stedevil

Make no mistake, the top drivers in DTC and STCC is right up there as well on talent

. Eg Göransson beat out Plato for the ETCcup crown back in 2005. Combined with 3xSTCC championships and class victories in eg Nürnberg 24h and the 2008ETCcup duel with Nykaer I'm in fact a bit surprised he is missing from both Werners and Helterskelters list. In any case, these lists are very hard to make. Just look eg at the 2 latest newcomers to rock the boat, Bennani and Michelisz. Nobody knew who they even were and BAM they are right up there in the top 10 kicking butt.

Goransson is absolutely a very quick driver. To be honest, I thought about him, but I didn't list him because I like more a cleaner and more consistent way of driving, qualities that I find more into Bjork than into Goransson. Nevertheless, I like Goransson very much. If he learns to stay out of trouble and possibly be a little more careful with the equipment (watching his camera-cars I found he overrevs a bit too much) then he'll be on par with most of the Wtcc drivers. And, actually, I knew who Michelisz was! I've always watched one-make series very carefully, you get to seeing so many great talents such as the Hungarian or Max Pedal�*.
I also like Ekblom very much, but I believe he'd need a year to learn all the tracks before being supercompetitive as he showed he can be.
I think that is the actual problem when 'promoting' a driver who raced in national series only to an international one: he needs at least one year to learn all of the tracks, but our sport is probably too fast to allow that. Just think of Fabrizio Giovanardi: I think we all agree that he's a world class driver, but he still needed a full year before winning the title in the Btcc.
As for O'Neill, I like him very much but I would like to see him with the same technical equipment as the others before expressing a full opinion on him. Surely I enjoyed myself watching him take podiums!!

awrb · 21 Aug 2009, 23:15 (Ref:2525792)

Quote:

Originally Posted by helterskelter

As for O'Neill, I like him very much but I would like to see him with the same technical equipment as the others before expressing a full opinion on him. Surely I enjoyed myself watching him take podiums!!

He did a good job for VXR in 2003.

I think a lot of the drivers in national series would do well in the WTCC. If anything, this thread has just made me wish we had a good world series, with more manufacturers and so more seats available for talent. I don't think there's much difference in the competitiveness of the main Touring car series, so its pretty clear who would do well. I just think it would be great if we could see what they could all do, I just don't get why touring cars are not a massive thing, its more accessible than F1, so should at least be bigger than that. It should be Europe's answer to NASCAR. But then I've never understood what the general public likes, football's rubbish!

helterskelter · 22 Aug 2009, 00:30 (Ref:2525816)

Quote:

Originally Posted by awrb

He did a good job for VXR in 2003.

I think a lot of the drivers in national series would do well in the WTCC. If anything, this thread has just made me wish we had a good world series, with more manufacturers and so more seats available for talent. I don't think there's much difference in the competitiveness of the main Touring car series, so its pretty clear who would do well. I just think it would be great if we could see what they could all do, I just don't get why touring cars are not a massive thing, its more accessible than F1, so should at least be bigger than that. It should be Europe's answer to NASCAR. But then I've never understood what the general public likes, football's rubbish!

I didn't watch Btcc in 2003, I'm sorry about that. Apart from being more accessible, touring cars are much more spectacular than F1. I guess Wtcc is less popular because it doesn't have its Bernie Ecclestone... In the '70s Formula One was pretty much of an élite thing, a bit like Wtcc today, then it started to grow massively. I don't know about the UK, surely it was like that in Italy. Because of this huge publicity that F1 gets, you don't get too many drivers who start karting and aim to a Wtcc works drive. It just happens, just the way it happened to Augusto Farfus and Andy Priaulx.
I think manufacturers invest more in F1 because it's much more famous, unfortunately. I never managed to get my friends to watching a Wtcc race, though I talk about it all the time!
As for the competitiveness of the national series, as I said before it's a matter of giving drivers a bit of time to learn the tracks and the cars. I believe we all rate Ekblom very highly, but of course when it came to racing in the Wtcc he wasn't too quick, because he'd have needed at least a full year to learn the tracks, the Wtcc BMW 320si and the team. Of course, the talent shines through, like Goransson, Bjork, Turkington or, I would say, even Mat Jackson. But they would hardly be quick straight away, I believe.

Jacob Black · 22 Aug 2009, 01:00 (Ref:2525826)

Quote:

Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide

I only really see BTCC and WTCC, although I believe that (as with Superbikes0 the British series is second only to the World one (assuming we don't class DTM as Touring Cars).

No.
Autosport in the UK lists DTM, V8 Supercars, WTCC and the Argentine TC2000 as the best. BTCC barely rates.
As for superbikes, the AMA, is better than BSK. (That was painful to say)
There are German, Australian and Argentine guys who ought to be in WTCC, but as it stands, the WTCC is only really a European championship.
As for not counting the DTM, fair enough, but it still leaves BTCC down the list.

helterskelter · 22 Aug 2009, 01:53 (Ref:2525837)

I don't agree with Autosport, to be honest. The amount of talent in the Btcc (and even the Stcc) field is impressive.
For sure there are so many good drivers out there that we don't know, but I don't agree that the Wtcc is just a European series. Of course it's hard for non-european drivers to race in the Wtcc with a non-european team, but Lada is not based in Russia, for instance, and we do have a non-european driver, which is Farfus, plus 2 Russian drivers and 1 Moroccan. Formula One currently has 4 of them, too, most of which have had a european-based formation, and all of the teams are based in Europe. I don't think it makes Formula One a European series.
In terms of calendar, the Wtcc has 4 races out of 12 outside Europe, so I wouldn't say it's a European series in terms of racetrack venues...

Jacob Black · 22 Aug 2009, 02:06 (Ref:2525840)

Russia is Europe, sorry, mate, but if you can drive to it, its the same group of countries. The BTCC is good racing, but it's not the second best category in the world, not by a long shot.
I can think of three or four aussies, and at least three Argentines who could spank the pants out of most of the WTCC field.

Tourer · 22 Aug 2009, 03:29 (Ref:2525858)

I'm with Jacob on this - the so called WTCC is the ETCC renamed. Doesn't mean that its not a worthwhile competition but to refer to it as a "world" touring car championship is a joke.

When that title existing with group A in the 80s, the series ran at several distant locations and competitors could run a group A car in their local event with many national series running group A.

In terms of drivers, it would be good to see the good euro drivers (incl UK and DTM) up against the south americans, australians, kiwis plus some japanese and US (NASCAR) drivers. To limit such a hypothetical competition to just drivers from the UK and WTCC fields is drawing out of a pretty shallow gene pool - however good some of those drivers may be.

Big problem would be getting them into decent cars - bit hard to get excited about 300hp FWD cars when the south americans, germans, australians and south africans all have far more interesting and exciting cars and series to watch.

helterskelter · 22 Aug 2009, 04:15 (Ref:2525868)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jacob Black

Russia is Europe, sorry, mate, but if you can drive to it, its the same group of countries. The BTCC is good racing, but it's not the second best category in the world, not by a long shot.
I can think of three or four aussies, and at least three Argentines who could spank the pants out of most of the WTCC field.

I don't think it's a matter of being able to drive to it. You can go by car to India, but I'm sure its definitely Asia. Togliatti, the city where Lada is based, is nearer to Kazahstan than to Belarus and Ukraine... I wouldn't be too sure that they would spank the pants out of most of the drivers in the field, as V8s are much different compared to our S2000 touring cars. As Giovanardi went there and came 15th (and nobody can say Giovanardi is not a good driver) I think that Lowndes wouldn't be up on pace straight away in Croft with a Vauxhall, for instance (and I rate Craig Lowndes as a very good driver, of course). In motorsports it's a matter of learning... And that's not an easything, to top Giovanardi at Knockhill with the same car... Definitely not!

Icebaby · 22 Aug 2009, 08:11 (Ref:2525949)

Just going back to Paul O'Neill his achievements this year are quite apparent in an old car run on a restricted budget yet he has continued to impress, had the car not let him down on a number of occasions he would be a BTCC winner this year and multiple podium's as well.

The part Paul O'Neill has over all the other drivers his is emotion at succeding and his praise to his fans and team, it doesn't make him a better driver but it brings him closer to the fans. On the Snetterton podium in 2009 where Gio, Jackson and Neill where there only one driver hung around to sign autographs and only one driver spotted a 10 year old BTCC fan crying because he could,nt get his programme signed, Paul O'Neill spotted him and went over to sign it.

Paul O'Neill deserves his name in the list of WTCC.

Les · 22 Aug 2009, 08:47 (Ref:2525969)

I have always rated Paul O'Neil as one who could go far - it is criminal that manufacturers never see that - all they think is he probably could bring a budget from his sister.

Hazard · 22 Aug 2009, 11:34 (Ref:2526036)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jacob Black

Russia is Europe, sorry, mate, but if you can drive to it, its the same group of countries. The BTCC is good racing, but it's not the second best category in the world, not by a long shot.
I can think of three or four aussies, and at least three Argentines who could spank the pants out of most of the WTCC field.

I'm sure the UKIP are celebrating your startling revelation which confirms the UK is no longer part of Europe.

helterskelter · 22 Aug 2009, 12:32 (Ref:2526060)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hazard

I'm sure the UKIP are celebrating your startling revelation which confirms the UK is no longer part of Europe.

Yeah, I enjoyed seeing Paul O'Neill performing so well, but I'd like to see him in an S2000 car now!

redshoes · 22 Aug 2009, 12:38 (Ref:2526061)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jacob Black

Russia is Europe, sorry, mate, but if you can drive to it, its the same group of countries.

I guess this means that New York is in Europe as well.

helterskelter · 22 Aug 2009, 13:13 (Ref:2526066)

Quote:

Originally Posted by redshoes

I guess this means that New York is in Europe as well.

On the other hand, Sicily and Sardinia are not Europe, but continents of their own, since you can't drive to reach them!
And, BTW, is New York in Europe or are we in America?

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