Nissan Leaf

[GORDON STREETER]

I had a good look at a new Nissan Leaf yesterday with some other mechanics at a garage near me in the UK.
The owner was singing it's praises and I can see his point but only if you are only doing local "ish" runs. Although Nissan claim 150 miles on one charge that is in an ideal situation and not in cold weather when using the heater/wipers/air con/ lights etc when that can easily be reduced to 70 miles or less.
Yes that's fine if you are popping into town and back as you don't have to plug it in at the "non existent" charging posts in my area.
Seeing that you are looking at about 30 grand to buy one new they don't seem to be very good value for money to me.
I notice that Volvo say that they are going to go all electric in two years time so maybe they know more than others in the battery department ?
Your thoughts

[fourWheelDrift]

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

I had a good look at a new Nissan Leaf yesterday with some other mechanics at a garage near me in the UK.
The owner was singing it's praises and I can see his point but only if you are only doing local "ish" runs. Although Nissan claim 150 miles on one charge that is in an ideal situation and not in cold weather when using the heater/wipers/air con/ lights etc when that can easily be reduced to 70 miles or less.
Yes that's fine if you are popping into town and back as you don't have to plug it in at the "non existent" charging posts in my area.
Seeing that you are looking at about 30 grand to buy one new they don't seem to be very good value for money to me.
I notice that Volvo say that they are going to go all electric in two years time so maybe they know more than others in the battery department ?
Your thoughts

My understanding is Volvo include hybrids in it's all electric announcement so not so dramatic as all that. As to the leaf if it was MUCH cheaper it'd make a great second car to use for the local running around while having something bigger and IC engined or hybrid for the longer journeys. So much depends on your usage patterns but many could use a Leaf for 90% of their motoring but at 30k odd, forget it.

[GORDON STREETER]

What I don't think is that has anyone looked at the bigger picture ? The majority of people that live in say the UK live in a street that is overcrowded with cars, a good percentage of them would probably only do a small mileage a day and an electric car would work, but where would they charge them ?
At the moment they are free of road tax, how would the government pay for road repairs ? I won't even think about people breaking down with flat batteries !

[nicanary]

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

What I don't think is that has anyone looked at the bigger picture ? The majority of people that live in say the UK live in a street that is overcrowded with cars, a good percentage of them would probably only do a small mileage a day and an electric car would work, but where would they charge them ?
At the moment they are free of road tax, how would the government pay for road repairs ? I won't even think about people breaking down with flat batteries !

I think it's been a good number of years now since any Government in the UK used the road tax for road funding. Car tax is just a small proportion of a very big pot - road repairs are the least of their problems.

I've got a weeping shock absorber which the makers tell me is "wear and tear". It'll fail its MOT unless I fix it (£200) but I know full well that's it's potholes which caused it - front left wheel - the one that hits the kerbside potholes first. The car is only 2 years old.

Sorry - gone off topic.

Governments all over the world have gone anti-ICE in their bids to appear "green" and up-to-date with modern issues, but the alternatives just aren't practicable. All-electric is a pipedream.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

What I don't think is that has anyone looked at the bigger picture ? The majority of people that live in say the UK live in a street that is overcrowded with cars, a good percentage of them would probably only do a small mileage a day and an electric car would work, but where would they charge them ?
At the moment they are free of road tax, how would the government pay for road repairs ? I won't even think about people breaking down with flat batteries !

I don't really think that's the bigger picture. That's just basic infrastructure. The bigger picture extends FAR beyond charging and road tax. And people are certainly looking at that, yes.

Where do we charge the cars? Well we already have electricity in the streets in lamp posts and parking meters. This is how LA and SF are doing it - replacing every second or third parking space with an electric car spot and using lamp posts with built in charging units. These issues can be solved if people are willing to think creatively rather than just sit and say "Yeah but that takes work. And thought. And we haven't done it before". We already have an electric grid. Adapting it to charging cars is no different to adapting it to add new types of street lights, or build a new housing estate.

Car tax hasn't gone on roads for decades. It's just another revenue stream. A lot of cars which were free or extremely low tax bands are now £140 a year. Electric cars currently aren't, but tax bands aren't forever. The next change in car tax regs will almost certainly tax electric cars and that's that. Car tax regs aren't really about taxing vehicles that use roads, but encouraging car manufacturers to take a certain route with development. Once that path has been travelled, the taxes are adjust accordingly.

Originally Posted by nicanary

Governments all over the world have gone anti-ICE in their bids to appear "green" and up-to-date with modern issues, but the alternatives just aren't practicable. All-electric is a pipedream.

I'm not green nut (Because I REALLY want my Bentley V8), but electric cars are not a pipedream. There are lots of things that were once not practical which now are common. Even the petrol car was once completely impractical and a pipe dream. You couldn't even fuel it because we had no petrol stations. And now look at it. Flying? I bet few thought that would be common when the Wright bothers did their first flight.

Electric cars are not practical for most right this very second. And they are still over expensive for what they are. But that doesn't make it a pipe dream, and being sustainable does not make it only for the vegan hippies. As much as I absolutely love a massive petrol V8 (with as many turbo and super chargers as can be physically attached), that doesn't mean it'll always be the best way to transport people about (although it may always be the most entertaining way to have a motor race!).

Electric cars are in the early stages. But being an early technology does not make something a pipe dream. ICE have had a hundred years of development. The computer has had 50 years. Planes have had a hundred years. And yet we're writing off electric cars based on a handful of early versions? That's not how technology works, and if you stick you're head in the sand then you'll only get left behind, because whether we like it or not (and with motorsport I do not like it), electric cars are coming. And let me make it clear - I'm really not an eco warrior. I struggled to even care about the VAG emissions stuff, and that was huge for even normal people. But electric car progression is light speed (see that, electricity reference? I'm here all day folks!) and they do have several advantages already to petrol cars. As time goes on, it'll become more available to consumers, at lower prices, and the disadvantages will continue to drop.

[Tim Falce]

The worrying thing about an electric Nissan is who makes them. Renault electrics are woeful in a normal car so god knows how an electric version will fair.

[grantp]

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

What I don't think is that has anyone looked at the bigger picture ? The majority of people that live in say the UK live in a street that is overcrowded with cars, a good percentage of them would probably only do a small mileage a day and an electric car would work, but where would they charge them ?
At the moment they are free of road tax, how would the government pay for road repairs ? I won't even think about people breaking down with flat batteries !

It would seem that the great and the good think that old ideas are new ideas and worth £250k.

The future of this country, with or without "bright" incomers, is not looking that hopeful if this sort of thing is as good as it gets.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40600082

What Next?

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by grantp

It would seem that the great and the good think that old ideas are new ideas and worth £250k.

The future of this country, with or without "bright" incomers, is not looking that hopeful if this sort of thing is as good as it gets.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40600082

What Next?

What a load of bo*****s , all I can say is I'm glad that I'm as old as I am
The sun beckons and the men in white coats are waiting !!!!!

[Akrapovic]

So people complain that cars aren't paying enough road tax and that won't be enough to pay for the roads. Ok, fair point. There also seems to be an inherent bias against any tech that could be seen as green. But lets just go with it for now.

Someone comes along with an idea that is based on distance traveled rather than emissions. This would tax people who use the road system more, and it wouldn't give a tax break to these evil electric Nissan leaf drivers....and people are complaining? Isn't this what you wanted? A revenue stream to pay for upkeep of the road network, and not subsidising green energy at the detriment of traditional ICE owners?

[grantp]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

So people complain that cars aren't paying enough road tax and that won't be enough to pay for the roads. Ok, fair point. There also seems to be an inherent bias against any tech that could be seen as green. But lets just go with it for now.

Someone comes along with an idea that is based on distance traveled rather than emissions. This would tax people who use the road system more, and it wouldn't give a tax break to these evil electric Nissan leaf drivers....and people are complaining? Isn't this what you wanted? A revenue stream to pay for upkeep of the road network, and not subsidising green energy at the detriment of traditional ICE owners?

At the most basic level it's not even close to being a new idea and, based on the BBC write up, it's not even a clever approach to collecting cash - just another imposition on a third party - the insurance company who, presumably, will find ways to "cover their costs". Since when have Insurance companies undertaken an annual audit of mileage?

If that is the best a graduate from one of the UK's better universities can come up with we are in trouble. However I note that Lord King and his wife had a similar idea. That perhaps tells us more about past policies than we might ever have known.

Moreover if it worth £250k there is something very skewed about the perceived values of original thought.

Maybe there were so few entries that Next felt obliged to cough up anyway no matter the paucity of originality.

The EU have been going full on for Road charging and several countries have implemented their own systems (note "systems" not a single standard) for commercial traffic in the EU.

However, despite a lot of trials in the past decade news about it as a Europe wide charge across all vehicles seems to be lacking these days. Maybe they are simply waiting for the autonomous electric revolution and will build the concept into the inevitable tracking systems involved.

Whichever way tax is collected - as the history of "Road Tax" illustrates - the roads will always be the last thing that the money collected will be spent on and even if they were to start out with their favourite "ring fenced" meme you just know that at some point the contractors will find a way to suck up the available funds via a team of civil servants employed to make sure it is distributed, somehow, by the end of each year.

That's why I would never trust a scheme like the one proposed to either work or be fair to the users even assuming that there was likely to be a real will to make it even handed. If such a scheme would work the obvious approach has always been based on fuel usage - but of course that is now a bit tricky with plug in cars being encouraged and no clear way to grab the tax if people are able to charge from 13 amp plugs ...

Far better that they come clean and simply mandate a change to electric vehicles, rented from the state, and bundle the cost of road maintenance (which will be in the State's interest to curtail damage, though they may not care) into the rental charge.

Human drivers will be incompatible with autonomous vehicles anyway to the problem of integrating ICE or older electric models can simple by bypassed by disallowing them.

Where do I claim my £250k?

[Akrapovic]

I never said it was a great idea, or new. But it does meet the criteria that the original complaints were about. It also seems like a better solution than what we currently use. And I say that as someone who would probably suffer, as I drive a lot.

Given the UK spends around £750bn a year, I wouldn't be overly fussed about your £250k. It'd run the country for the best part of 5 minutes. Doing a few minutes silences throughout the year actually costs more than £250k, as it's 5 minutes through the year when the government stops working.

I do agree that cars will eventually go autonomous and this won't be an issue, but that's not really the topic for this one. It's just the usual "If it's green it can't possibly be good" stuff.

[Mike Bell]

Few penneth the from me-

Yes, Volvo announcement was that all their cars would have an electric motor by 2019 or whatever year. This could be anything from a 48V mild hybrid with petrol ICE (no diesel) to full BEV.

Used Nissan Leafs are available for reasonable money or lease costs, as are early Renault Zoe models. Both have less range than the latest versions, but are perfectly acceptable where most charging will be done at home.

London appears to be slowly getting to grips with on street charging. Other cities seem painfully slow. The infrastructure needs higher government priority if they want the swing away from ICE to increase. Just simply announcing (Queens Speech recently) that they 'wanted more charging points at service areas and fuel stations' is pretty disappointing- who's going to pay for it unless they (we) do? I suspect we will never see chargers at established fuel stations due to lack of space and safety requirements. It would have to be a new build.

A lot of effort is being put into research on 'inductive' charging, where a car just drives over the charging coils set into the road. Renault are running trials on the idea, with a US company also working hard on the tech- to sell on if it works!

Battery tech improvements will hopefully double the range of small cars in the next few years. It's relatively easy now to get a useable range in a 5m 2.5 tonne saloon or SUV, not so easy in a 1250kg 4m hatch........

I'm sure UK RFL bands will be adjusted over time so BEVs aren't exempt, and one has to wonder if the current grants will disappear as well. At the moment some manufacturers are giving good incentives to buy their electric cars, as their requirement to meet future average emission targets will depend on it.

I've now got first hand experience of BEVs, as a racing friend is now on his 3rd Tesla Model S, after having one of the first imported to the UK. The latest is a P100D, which has the highest output battery pack that can be fitted, until technology changes. He recently borrowed a new Model X SUV with towbar and we used it when racing at Brands. It made easy work of his laden Dastle Racebox! My own 'daily driver' (after legs, bicycle or scooter) is now an i3 (pure electric) and it is a very impressive motor car......

[grantp]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Given the UK spends around £750bn a year, I wouldn't be overly fussed about your £250k. It'd run the country for the best part of 5 minutes. Doing a few minutes silences throughout the year actually costs more than £250k, as it's 5 minutes through the year when the government stops working.

The prize is not tax money as I understand it.

It comes from Next at the behest of Lord Simon Wolfson, the Chief Exec.

I wonder if they also provided the clothes the chap in the photo is wearing?

Cruel, IMO, if they did.

[grantp]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Few penneth the from me-

Yes, Volvo announcement was that all their cars would have an electric motor by 2019 or whatever year. This could be anything from a 48V mild hybrid with petrol ICE (no diesel) to full BEV.



I've now got first hand experience of BEVs, as a racing friend is now on his 3rd Tesla Model S, after having one of the first imported to the UK. The latest is a P100D, which has the highest output battery pack that can be fitted, until technology changes. He recently borrowed a new Model X SUV with towbar and we used it when racing at Brands. It made easy work of his laden Dastle Racebox!

Mike,

Presumably the first 2 Teslas of the 3 are on the list of used cars for sale on the Tesla web site?

[GORDON STREETER]

Someone that lives close to me in the UK has a Nissan Leaf and wanted to go to Wisley RHS, he found out that there is a charging point there as it was going to be "marginal" (a round trip of about 100 miles) to do the complete trip without a charge.
So he gets there and plugs the car in all well and good, after 5 hours he came back to find that "someone" had unplugged his car presumably to charge there own ?
Time was getting on and he drove back using as little electrical stuff as he could including only using side lights as much as he could but he did manage to get home with the warning lights on.

[grantp]

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

Someone that lives close to me in the UK has a Nissan Leaf and wanted to go to Wisley RHS, he found out that there is a charging point there as it was going to be "marginal" (a round trip of about 100 miles) to do the complete trip without a charge.
So he gets there and plugs the car in all well and good, after 5 hours he came back to find that "someone" had unplugged his car presumably to charge there own ?
Time was getting on and he drove back using as little electrical stuff as he could including only using side lights as much as he could but he did manage to get home with the warning lights on.

Well, 5 hours is a bit of a cheek one would think!

However if your assumption about the reason for disconnection is correct the the perpetrator was extremely rude not to plug it back in and leave a note perhaps.

There again, it was Surrey and Wisley an whilst there are many nice, caring people connected to both there are certainly a few who would not even consider such an action even marginally antisocial. I would appear that such people are not averse to using electric vehicles! I bet it was a plugin hybrid too!

[Mike Bell]

Yes, 5hrs a bit ott! There is apparently an (unwritten?) etiquette in EVland that says that you don't monopolise a charging point. Trouble with Leaf and some other earlier tech cars is that they can only charge slowly. My observations at a rail station with charging points is that the same two BEV owners tend to park there for several hours while either working at the station or away on a journey. (Leaf and a Zoe....) Not the way it is supposed to work. The latest DC-CCS chargers that the i3 can use will give virtually a full charge (from around 30%) in 30 minutes. The 'pump' timer only allows you to be connected this amount of time before switching off, which is great at Mway service areas, where they are mostly utilised. The display shows how long the car has been charging, so anyone arriving can see how long they may have to wait. Said services virtually all now have '2hr time limit' for free parking, and most won't want to stay in one any longer than absolutely necessary, so there is less chance of not being able to charge immediately or within a short space of time.

A Norwich multi-storey car park has just been refurbed, and has a row of 8 charge points. That's impressive. They are 7kw, which defines them as 'fast' in the industry definitions of slow, fast or rapid. As owners will be paying to be in the car park, the cost of parking is likely to define how long they are plugged in, rather than the charge itself.

You also get the problem of 'ice-ing', where a non electric car parks in a charging space. I looked in a new Asda car park for the charging points, and found them just randomly fitted in normal parking places. Only the post itself with a small sign to show. Guess what, 3 of the 4 places had normal cars parked in them...... That's down to Asda and the post providers- rubbish positioning!

So far I've only had 'range anxiety' once, but it's really no different to running low on petrol or diesel late at night and then realising that all the fuel stations on the rest of your journey are closed. I've had that many times in 50 years!

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

So far I've only had 'range anxiety' once, but it's really no different to running low on petrol or diesel late at night and then realising that all the fuel stations on the rest of your journey are closed. I've had that many times in 50 years!

It is different in as much as you can carry a spare 5 lts of fuel for your ice vehicle but you can't carry a spare battery for an all electrical one.

I agree that electric cars have their place for popping into Sainsbury's and general short town runs etc but they won't be replacing conventional (or hybrid) for a long time IMHO

[Akrapovic]

Tesla Model S and X carry spare charge. Once you're at 0 miles of range the car keeps going for another good 10-20 miles. Is that any different to carrying the little extra petrol?

A few years ago this technology didn't even exist. Now we have electric cars which can do 300 miles on a charge and recharge in 30-45 minutes. Its expensive right now, but so were cars before the Ford Model T came along. The technology will get cheaper and it will get cheaper quickly. Once cars like the Model 3 and Model Y are in production, we'll see mass adoption of Electric vehicles. By which point other manufactures will be fully onboard as we'll, rather than just dipping their toes in with relatively short ranges.

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

It is different in as much as you can carry a spare 5 lts of fuel for your ice vehicle but you can't carry a spare battery for an all electrical one.

I agree that electric cars have their place for popping into Sainsbury's and general short town runs etc but they won't be replacing conventional (or hybrid) for a long time IMHO

Yes, you can carry spare fuel, but how many do?

Small BEVs are perfect for normal journeys, but with a bit of planning are pretty darn good for longer ones as well. The user just has to change their approach to the journey. I'd love a Tesla with a longer range, but even the Model 3 is bigger than I would want, apart from being more expensive!

I'm off to W Sussex in the beemer next week- 160 miles each way. The journey does have the advantage that the destination household have a pukka charging point, but even a UK 13a 3 pin would get the car charged up over time for the return if necessary.

[grantp]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Yes, you can carry spare fuel, but how many do?

Small BEVs are perfect for normal journeys, but with a bit of planning are pretty darn good for longer ones as well. The user just has to change their approach to the journey. I'd love a Tesla with a longer range, but even the Model 3 is bigger than I would want, apart from being more expensive!

I'm off to W Sussex in the beemer next week- 160 miles each way. The journey does have the advantage that the destination household have a pukka charging point, but even a UK 13a 3 pin would get the car charged up over time for the return if necessary.

So you didn't go for the extended range option or whatever it is called?

Mind you I can see the benefits of rolling up at someone's house and getting them to pay for you fuel ....

Unlikely to happen with petrol or diesel I suppose.

[Akrapovic]

Since it costs around £3 to fully charge a Nissan leaf, you'll probably find they wouldn't even notice 107 miles on a charge, that makes it 3 pence per mile of driving.

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by grantp

So you didn't go for the extended range option or whatever it is called?

Mind you I can see the benefits of rolling up at someone's house and getting them to pay for your fuel ....

REx 'range extender' weighs more, has less range on batteries because of that, and is therefore more likely to need the generator. (Which has a tiny fuel tank to be classified as 'low emission' in some countries.) My belief is go pure electric or don't bother!

Re: Your second para, it works both ways. Anyone staying here would be welcome to use my charger.

[Tim Falce]

How much does it cost to do a full charge? On the Lunacy from France thread, someone mentioned 6kwh to do about 25 miles (I think), on my electric tariff (16p per kwh) that'd cost me 97p which is hardly economical, or doesn't it work like that.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Tim Falce

How much does it cost to do a full charge? On the Lunacy from France thread, someone mentioned 6kwh to do about 25 miles (I think), on my electric tariff (16p per kwh) that'd cost me 97p which is hardly economical, or doesn't it work like that.

Nissan leaf has up to 30kWh battery. At 16 p per kWh, it'd cost £4.80 to charge it fully. Can do 107 miles on a charge say Nissan (lets bring it down to 100, because these numbers are never right). That makes it 4.8 p per mile.

Nissan Pulsar is around the same sized car. The most economic version is the 1.5 dCi. Nissan claim 74mpg, but real world reports are coming in at 58 mpg (which is still pretty good). Average price of diesel in the UK is 116.4 p per litre. The same 100 mile journey at 58 mpg, with fuel costing 116.4 p would cost you £9.12. That comes in at 9.1p per mile.

On your electricity cost, that makes the electric car half the price of the diesel for that journey. If you use a petrol Pulsar then the cost per mile rises to 13.2p per mile, and the gap is growing quickly.

It shouldn't be a surprise that it's cheaper to charge an electric car than fill one with petrol. The entire process of refining petrol, shipping it to petrol stations (which takes more petrol/diesel), and then running the petrol stations takes electricity and energy. So the companies providing this need to raise the price of their product to cope with these overheads. With a straight electric charge you cut out the refining, transportation and infrastructure costs which were inflating your petrol price, and get the electricity straight from the grid. You could argue the grid is an infrastructure cost, but you'd be paying that anyway since you live in a building with electricity, and you're still cutting out part of it as you're no longer funding others ability to pay for the grid. When you look at the bigger picture and the system as a whole, it makes sense that it's cheaper to charge an electric car.