2.4 litre engines?

[Adam43]

Auto Motor und Sport have reported that the next engine formula could be 2.4 litres.

As an aside it seems Mercedes and Ferrari want this, but BMW don't. BMW want to stay with more or less the same engines.

And, according to the bit I saw on Autosport about this, it is for 2005.

Taking a very crude linear relationship between volume and power thats abotu 725bhp. If the cars stay the same (in fact aren't altered drastically) could that mean they are woefully underpowered?

[gttouring]

725hp? woefully underpowered?
yeah right champ cars now at 750 >cough 800 cough< horses
are stillstinking fast, at the current weight or less 725 is staggering, in my road car 725 bhp would be ungodly
it may not be 'F1 spec' but this is still serious power put it into perspective. Is the Bentley underpowered? not really.

[Adam43]

I mean compared to the amazing grip they have. Everything is relative. In F1 a 20% reduction in power is still a lot. Especially if they don't do anything else.

That Bentley with 20% less power would be underpowered (I actually beleive it is slightly under powered as it is!). Your road car with 20% less power would be under powered. It is a question of perspective and this is an F1 cars perspective.

[gttouring]

i get it- i still feeel that we wouldn't really notice the difference, I can't from a spectating view see a change in champ cars today and 3 years ago when they were pusginf 900+
so I am not sure if it will matter, with more grip versus power we might see some more attempts at passing eh?

[Adam43]

I'd say you get more passing when the ratio goes the other way. For instance - in the wet the grip drops dramatically, but the power doesn't, the cars become more overpowered and there is (much) more overtaking.

[gttouring]

ah yes i see, again your point- the piloti might take a chance and try to put more down and find grip when there isn't, why wasI thinking backward?
IRL has it like that too- my apologies

[DNQ]

Yes, I believe you'd have even MORE reliance on aerodynamic grip, as you'd have less power, less torque etc. So the racing would be worse

[BMW V10]

How likely is this change going to occur? I think it would be horrible. They should increase the engine size as there would be greater speeds and longer braking distances; there would be more passing and more excitement. Bigger engines would benefit F1 and the spectators. Hopefully they could increase size without sacrificing the safety of the drivers.

[avsfan733]

if anything, I think they should have more power and not less. Donforce wouldn't change dramatically increasing overnight, and the tires wouldn't get more grip unlss they went to softer compounds which mean more pitstops and more tire degredation

[Wrex]

They had less than 800hp 5 or 6 years ago, have we noticed the increase?

If this is combined with some Aero reduction (clip the wings) it will be good.


There are 2 major benefits here. Firstly, safety. The cars continue to get faster and faster, so changes need to be made to slow them down a bit.

Secondly, any major change will throw a slanner in the ranks. Some teams will get the new config right, some will get it wrong. It is something like this that pushes a team like Toyota or Renault to the front with some luck.


I would love to see some options for the teams. Make a smaller turbo available. Throw in some weight penalties for different engines. The we will see some mixed results throughout the season.

[EERO]

When I started warching F1, a DFV was putting out 450-480 bhp and the Ferrari flat 12 had about 510.
I never thought the cars were slow. And they raced each other too.

[GTV27]

If they want to slow the cars, leave the engines alone and reduce the aero and/or increase the weight limit (say 750kg).

The cars are too close to F3000 or F3 as it is without going back to itty-bitty bloody engines. Make 'em five litre v12's I say!

sorry, rant over.

[Chui]

If they wish to improve the RACING reduce aero downforce. I suspect the diffusers are a problem for closely following cars...

If they TRULy wish to reduce power and change the format simply give them back 0.5 liters of displacement and go back to valve springs. They'd be back to 725 bhp overnight with slicks and less downforce.

[BMW V10]

Bigger engines and smaller wings would be best for the sport

[alfasud]

This is a ridiculous thread. So what are people saying here.... that back in the days of Senna and Prost and even back in the Cosworth DFV days, the racing was no good because they didn't have 800bhp? Or are they saying that drivers like Clark, Stewart, Lauda and Gilles Villeneuve were no good because they didn't have to deal with 800bhp?

I guess nobody watches WRC these days because they don't have 500bhp+ like in the Group B days either.

As long as the balance between power, mechanical grip and downforce is right, it's no problem...... cause you know what the alternative is don't you? More track modifications to slow the cars down.

The only thing I have against this proposal is the development cost for new engines and new chassis to carry them - but I guess that's going to happen anyway.

[Adam43]

Originally posted by EERO
When I started warching F1, a DFV was putting out 450-480 bhp and the Ferrari flat 12 had about 510.
I never thought the cars were slow. And they raced each other too.

I see this. And if they want to have 500bhp cars then fine, as long as they change the regs to bring back all those characteristics that those cars had. Put 500bhp in a current chassis though...

I also have no problem with the current safety of modern F1 cars. A controversial thing to say, but they don't need to be safer. Obviously if someone can come up with a new device or stronger materials etc... then fantastic, but I don't think it should be don by making them go slower. Maybe that was a problem when we had 1200+bhp qualifying on super slickey tyres one lap tyres, but not now.

I suppose what I am saying is that it is all very well taking about less power through new engines, but that needs to be part of overall changes. Of course it is hard enough to get anyone in F1 to agree on a single change, but it needs several changes that work together.

[Irv the Swerve]

I can't understand why the engines should be coming under scrutiny. Max and Bernie have been saying for ages that the show needs improving, as in better racing, and so far they have tinkered with the rules and now the engines. Why is it that the tyres are still not slick and that the aerodynamics have not been reduced? Thats what wil make better racing.

As far as 2.4 engines instead of 3.0, I don't think it will make much difference to the man in the street. In 1994-95 it went back to 3.0 litres and made no real difference(there were some aero mods too). It will of course push up development costs as teams try to makes the smaller engines quicker, this will favour the manufacturers and those with big budgets and not the small teams. The only reason I see for changing the rules would be the tyres and the aero. This would hurt development too of course (testing, wind tunnels), but the overall result would be better for the future than reducing the engines and still not having a race.

I think rule stability is important.

[EERO]

Originally posted by AdamAshmore
...I suppose what I am saying is that it is all very well taking about less power through new engines, but that needs to be part of overall changes. Of course it is hard enough to get anyone in F1 to agree on a single change, but it needs several changes that work together.

Well said and the absolute crux of the issue. Less power is not in and of itself going to improve racing.

Originally posted by Irv the Swerve
... The only reason I see for changing the rules would be the tyres and the aero. This would hurt development too of course (testing, wind tunnels), but the overall result would be better for the future than reducing the engines and still not having a race.

I think rule stability is important.

Especially the latter point, once the rules are right.

[JonesF1]

Originally posted by AdamAshmore
Taking a very crude linear relationship between volume and power thats abotu 725bhp. If the cars stay the same (in fact aren't altered drastically) could that mean they are woefully underpowered?

Except hp/l doesnt climb or drop linearly with engine size. It should still be somewhere around 700hp but thats to small for my taste (or anyone elses). If they increase the wing size like Ron wants why bother with a smaller engine?

The things to come...

[BootsOntheSide]

If they reduce the level of engine power, tehy shoudl seriosuly reduce the elvels of aerodynamic grip, maybe increasing mechanicail grip. taht'd be the ebst recipe to improve the racing. As people have said, it's not how much BHP the engines pull that makes racing great - it's the variety of frontrunners, lots of action, and lots of close racing with overtaking chances.

[Adam43]

JonesF1, hence the word 'crude'. I thought that the approximation would be OK because by then they'd be a bit more over the 900bhp than waht I used.

What size wings does Ron want, I've not heard this. Are they standard or just made bigger (perhaps rules making them less efficient too?)

[Chui]

What in Hades was wrong with the rules prior to Senna's death?
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NOTHING!

[BMW V10]

I believe Ron Dennis tried to pull a fast one over the smaller teams by lobbying to get the wing sized increased as it would 'allow smaller teams to get more space for sponsors.' In reality he knew it would just put more stress on teams without powerful wind tunnels. I think this may have been mentioned in the Stoddart fighting fund interview. Going back to slicks would certainly be good for the mechanical grip aspect but it would decrease braking distances making it harder to pass. If they could go back to slicks and decrease wing sizes that would be really good for the sport. I too believe that the safety is already very good in F1. When I saw Luciano Burti's accident a few years ago I feared the worst but the car did a fantastic job to take the impact.

[429CJ]

Let them have 4 litre Vee eights.

[JAG]

In Autosport they had an article about the new F1 regs, which were along the lines of reducing power to the 700-750BHP mark, and at least halfing aerodynamic grip.

You need to get in the real world if you think anything under 800BHP is underpowered.

F1 cars need less power and less grip. They will be much more exciting than the current cars.

Any changes would be around 2005/6.

Lets not be complacent it is only luck that has prevented a serious injury in the last few years in F1 as the cars are so quick, both in a straight line and in the corners.

Also bear in mind the new regs would be set for the next 3-4 years so the cars would be developed over the years.