Your opinions would be appreciated

EvilPumpkin · 7 Oct 2005, 12:04 (Ref:1426321)

Hi folks,

If you could take the time to have a brief look at this thread - http://tentenths.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=39

Your opinions as drivers would be much appreciated.

Many thanks,

EP

Chris Y · 7 Oct 2005, 13:37 (Ref:1426440)

Try this one instead: http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=74787

My first thoughts were along the lines of: I can't believe the driver(s) got off so lightly with that sort of behaviour, particularly with the CofC in attendance. Should have been serious points on licence or even a temporary ban for the troublemaker.

How did the driver being 'rescued' feel?

Bob Pearson · 7 Oct 2005, 14:39 (Ref:1426522)

Does anyone know what the "obstructer's" motives were? My experiences in life suggest that someone does something slightly weird often without a decent reason
( thoughtlessness or similar,) but when apparently really weird as this is there is often a strong reason ( at least in his mind ) why he did it. So, I think we need to hear from the defence.

EvilPumpkin · 7 Oct 2005, 14:48 (Ref:1426531)

Personally I can't see what the defence would be for what was done but I agree it would be interesting to hear his reasons. I have sent emails to a couple of people in the class regarding it as I don't have contact details for him.

I would ask the following questions though, just to see what you think:

What kind of medical qualifications would you expect someone to have in order to determine that it was safe to remove someone from a car accident?
Do you think you can tell if someone is injured just by looking at them? And by this I mean, if they look ok with no visible damage, can you be sure that there is nothing wrong with them?

His reasons stated at the time were that he didn't want the car cut. Nothing else.

Bob Pearson · 7 Oct 2005, 14:59 (Ref:1426542)

It really is quite odd. Did he own the car? I can believe that someone who knows a particular make of car very well has useful information to give to a crew trying to remove an injured driver, but standing on it driving everone away doesn't seem to fall into that category.
I must admit my medical qualifications are in the minus figures, and if someone tries to get out of a car following a crash I assume they are OK or at worst will recover.
For that reason when I hit something the first thing I do is take off the steering wheel and toss it over the side. That way you guys and girls on your way to me know there is no big deal problem.
But back to the issue, there seems little doubt that he was out of order, but the true motives remain a fascination.

EvilPumpkin · 7 Oct 2005, 15:07 (Ref:1426552)

As far as I am aware he did not own the car, nor was he related to the driver.

Sadly, someone getting out of a car doesn't mean they're not injured. The whole issue with crashes is that it creates adrenaline which can mask pain and symptoms of injury. In addition, with spinal injuries, it can take up to 24 hours for the damage to present, depending on what it is.

I can give you a couple of cases that I've witnessed personally. A driver who got out of a car after a head on collision with a tree in the Park. 2 fractured vertibrae. The actions of our medics when they arrived at the scene and did a standing take down on him were very probably the only reason he didn't spend the rest of his life in a wheelchair.

A biker who got up after a big spill, ran across the track and then collapsed. Fractured pelvis. It's not supposed to be possible to stand up if you have a fractured pelvis, never mind run, but this guy did it.

If a doctor or an EMT cannot tell just by looking if someone is injured, then I really can't see how someone with no medical training can do so.

Our policy is based on the mechanism of injury. If someone SHOULD be injured because of what happened to them, treat them as though they are until proven otherwise.

Bob Pearson · 7 Oct 2005, 15:19 (Ref:1426560)

Don't misunderstand me EP, I am eternally grateful for you and the qualifications of the doctors at the events. I was merely pointing out my lack of knowledge in that area, and in its absence the only criteria I have for making a decision.
Fortunately no-ones good health is dependant on the accuracy of my decision.
unfortunately it sounds as if the guy in question had my limits of knowledge and used them to make a decision.
I'm going home soon, so don't think the silence means I'm sulking !!

EvilPumpkin · 7 Oct 2005, 15:37 (Ref:1426573)

Bob, I was only trying to address your queries and I'm not in the least offended. Sorry if it seems that way - I try to be as dispassionate as possible when explaining this stuff.

More drivers should ask these questions instead of thinking we're all gung ho eejits looking for an excuse to destroy an engine with powder or a roll cage with a cutter!

I'm going home too!

**Tim Falce** · 7 Oct 2005, 16:12 (Ref:1426601)

On a point of interest, how was the female driver and how did she get out in the end?

greenamex2 · 7 Oct 2005, 19:57 (Ref:1426784)

On the subject of not noticing or realising the extent of ones injuries, I have walked a mile to a phone with two fractured knees and taken several days to realise I have a fractured leg or arm. Maybe I just haven't got any sense.

One thing that my numerous collisions with solid objects on my motorcycles has taught me is people can react very differently in the event of an accident, even if they aren't directly involved. One woman wouldn't let go of her steering wheel for half an hour, one taxi driver couldn't stop laughing, some guy just shrugged his shoulders and offered to just tell his insurance company he backed into a post whilst parking after I drove into the back of him whilst trying to work out where a rattle was coming from (it was a defective gearbox sprocket retaining plate design).

If the driver had a low opinion of the marshalls ability to handle the situation then I can sort of understand his actions, dunno, maybe he fancied the female driver.

However he clearly needed a much bigger kicking from the officials than he got. I would have made in marshall an event or two and maybe stuck him on a marshall/first aid course as a prereq to getting a licence next year.

I just hope that guy doesn't drive HIS car into the armco at the same point with the same marshalls present. I expect the marshalls will act in their usual professional manner but I am sure they could be a little overzealous with the roll cage and race suit cutters, glass hammer and fire extinguisher pull cables!

**dtype38** · 7 Oct 2005, 21:18 (Ref:1426816)

EP.. there's surely got to be more to this than meets the eye. If the overview you gave was accurate, witnessed, and without extreme extenuating circumstances, then I would expect any CoC in the UK to ask the marshalls to remove the obstructing driver, ask the emergency crews to follow standard procedures to remove the driver in the car, then suspended the obstructing driver from the meeting pending a full inquiry. If the CoC didn't do something along these lines then I would expect the MSA (or its Irish equivalent) to suspend both driver and CoC pending a full enquiry.

If neither of these has happened then, as I said, there must be more factors than we can see.

as for why the obstructing driver might have acted that way... well... this is NOT a defence of his actions... but let's say, hypothetically, the offending driver had been personally involved in a similar incident previously. He'd rolled his car and had come to rest upside down, fully concious, badly bruised, but nothing broken. Suddenly he's decended on by a team of highly professional and dedicated marshalls and emergency personel who insist he remains exactly where he is while they bring on the cutting gear. They ignore his protestations that he's fine because they know (quite rightly) that he might not realise he actually has a broken back or similar. So his pride and joy, invested with every last penny he has, is duely opened like a sardine can, only later to find out that he's perfectly ok, but has lost his chance at the championship because the officials have trashed his car with not so much as a by-your-leave or any compensation.

So, fast forward to the incident. He sees the car roll and land on its side. He is determined to get there before the marshalls, jumps on the car and yanks the door open. The fact that it opens at all proves to him that the roll hasn't seriously deformed the body shell so the impact couldn't have been that bad. He shouts in to the driver to check if they're concious and gets a thumbs up and a shout that everything is fine..... so now he's on a mission to prevent some one's pride and joy from being turned into sushi....

Like I said... I'm not excusing anything, but what I just wrote has got to be at least a plausible explanation of what seem like the actions of a madman. As for the reported actions of the CoC... I can't even hazzard a guess.

Just so as you don't get me wrong... FWIW, if I was driving at that meeting and watched it happened, I'd expect the offending driver to be wrestled to the ground and removed from the track by the marshalls and I'd applaud and buy them a drink

Stuart Hill · 7 Oct 2005, 22:07 (Ref:1426832)

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtype38

EP.. As for the reported actions of the CoC... I can't even hazzard a guess.

Methinks that maybe this is the real problem with the whole scenario. I for one cannot imagine the driver (or would want to meet) the driver that Magneton could not remove if he so desired !!!

There may well be an underlying cause for this driver's actions but......

does this excuse him or the perceived lack of punishment??

Please Discuss.

johnw · 8 Oct 2005, 01:42 (Ref:1426916)

To answer your original question Pumpkin, my opinion is that the offending driver should have his licence withdrawn. Ditto the CoC.

I would be very unhappy racing against this chap, or under the auspices of the clerk.

Behaviour this bizzare might perhaps relate to alcohol or substance abuse. Was the guy tested?

silver bullet · 8 Oct 2005, 10:21 (Ref:1427106)

This driver should have been loaded up and excluded from the meeting.
I am amazed at some of the drivers reactions to marshals, do they not realise that if it were not for marshals we could not race. It should be mandatory that all drivers should attend a marshals course and marshal at at least one meeting.

**Tim Falce** · 8 Oct 2005, 10:59 (Ref:1427137)

His actions are clearly totaly out of order, but I feel we are not getting the whole story here, there is no mention of how the female driver was eventually removed from the car, how she was or the reason for the other competitor and his companion obstructing the marshals.
As dtype38 said, maybe he has been involved in a similar incident and seen someone's pride and joy cut open needlesly.
Did anyone actualy find out why he acted the way he did or even ask him afterwards?

EvilPumpkin · 8 Oct 2005, 11:34 (Ref:1427168)

Ok lots of questions here which I will try and answer as fully as I can.

The driver of the vehicle was found to be ok in terms of serious injuries after examination at the med centre. That being said, she was complaining of lower back pain amongst other things when the doctor examined her in situ which was the reason for the decision to do a spinal extraction and then examine in the med centre. Please bear in mind that the DOCTOR made this decision - NOT the marshals or rescue crew. The doctor is a regular at Mondello and is an A&E consultant at one of the top Dublin hospitals. The cutting gear was not unloaded when rescue arrived at the scene but only after the doctor had gained access to the driver and done his initial examination.
To my knowledge, the driver in question (the obstructive one) has never been cut out of his car by our team. I can double check that but there's no record of it that I'm aware of. For reference, our rescue crew has performed only 5 cut outs in the last 6 years. There has never been a cut out peformed on the cars in that particular class.
Our rescue unit train specifically for cut outs on race cars, with a heavy emphasis on causing the minimum amount of damage to the race vehicle, although the safety of the driver will always take priority. Specifically, unless there is no option, they never cut through any part of the car that will make it unfixable such as chassis members, suspension, major body shell, structural members etc. If a car requires any of these areas to be cut, it is usually unsalavagable in any case.
There is always more to any situation than meets the eye. I'm sure I could entertain you for hours on the issues surrounding how Motorsport in Ireland is run, but that will not achieve anything and will certainly not further what we are trying to achieve. However, all the facts i have given are correct and have been verified by a number of sources. Please bear in mind that MagnetOn was one of the rescue personnel at the scene and I was one of the marshals so none of this is based on hearsay.
I don't know who spoke to the driver afterwards. Obviously the officials did and then applied the penalties that they did, such as they were.

Hope this answers the queries so far - let me know if I've missed anything. Incidentally, I have been in contact with someone I know in the racing class to advise them that this issue is being discussed in case the driver wishes to make his own comments. I haven't had a response though.

**Tim Falce** · 8 Oct 2005, 16:34 (Ref:1427401)

Quote:

Originally Posted by EvilPumpkin

Ok lots of questions here which I will try and answer as fully as I can...........

..........Hope this answers the queries so far - let me know if I've missed anything. Incidentally, I have been in contact with someone I know in the racing class to advise them that this issue is being discussed in case the driver wishes to make his own comments. I haven't had a response though.

So how was she removed from the car, was it cut open?
How did the doctor get to examine her if Mr Angry was on top of the car preventing access?

Sorry about asking what may seem silly questions but it is hard to form an opinion without knowing the full story.
Personally if I were injured and maybe trapped in a car and some clown decided to dance around on top preventing any help arriving I would be pleased if a swift right hook was administered to said member of the circus community.

Al Weyman · 8 Oct 2005, 19:59 (Ref:1427587)

Are you sure he was not a person with medical training and was trying to prevent the girl being extracted till further confirmation that she had no spinal or hidden injuries? Because I really cannot understand his beef if something like this was not the case. Maybe he is just a nutter!

EvilPumpkin · 8 Oct 2005, 21:34 (Ref:1427656)

Quote:

Originally Posted by falcemob

So how was she removed from the car, was it cut open?
How did the doctor get to examine her if Mr Angry was on top of the car preventing access?

Sorry about asking what may seem silly questions but it is hard to form an opinion without knowing the full story.
Personally if I were injured and maybe trapped in a car and some clown decided to dance around on top preventing any help arriving I would be pleased if a swift right hook was administered to said member of the circus community.

Hey falce, no need to apologise - they're far from silly questions.

She was originally to be extracted but she wanted to get out of the car so rather than distress her further, she was allowed to do so and then a standing takedown was performed.
Mr. Angry was eventually talked down from the car which allowed the doctor to gain access.

Al, yes we're sure that he was not medically qualified - particularly not more so than the man in the red jumpsuit with DOCTOR written on it. From the evidence stated, it seems highly unlikely that he was just trying to prevent any action pending a medical examination. Someone who tries to prevent a doctor from attending an incident would not appear to have that intention.

**dtype38** · 8 Oct 2005, 22:11 (Ref:1427673)

Quote:

Originally Posted by EvilPumpkin

She was originally to be extracted but she wanted to get out of the car so rather than distress her further, she was allowed to do so and then a standing takedown was performed.

Errr... my turn to show my ignorance now. A "standing takedown"?? That sort of sounds like the driver was allowed to climb out then was rugby tackled.

I'm sure you didn't mean that, but it does raise the issue that even with full emergency teams, a doctor, and lots of special equipment, the driver can still over-rule any medical advice and just get out of their car and walk off. I'm also pretty sure that unless they are sectioned under a mental health act (UK law) or arrested, then they are perfectly within their rights to do so, although I'm not actually sure if that's a good or a bad thing.

Perhaps a route forward would be to add an "Agreement to Comply with Safety Advice" section to race entry forms. This could set out the rules of the circuit and require drivers to sign that in the event of an accident they agree to follow any and all instructions given by marshalls and medical/emergency staff. This would not prevent a driver choosing to ignore safety advice, but would give a clear cause for their instant exclusion from the race meeting and an investigation into possible further diciplinary action.

Al Weyman · 9 Oct 2005, 05:26 (Ref:1427801)

I take your point dtype but adrenilin rush kick in or not I am sure she must have been there for a good few minutes to gather herself together and I am also sure she must be the best judge if she is OK to move, ie. she can wiggle her toes, move her head, no blood etc. of course after consultation with the specialist medic on the spot as well.

Mind you having said that it sort of reminds me years ago when I had a nasty rugby accident and snapped a medial ligament in my knee clean in two, the lads rushed out with a stetcher, me being the big hard man said no need for that I can walk off to a "Can you carry the stretcher back with you Al" which I did only to find myself having emergency surgery 24 hours later and was lucky not to end up a cripple!.

EvilPumpkin · 10 Oct 2005, 14:43 (Ref:1429647)

Sorry - a standing take down is when someone is put on a spinal board from a standing position.

The board is brought to the back of the person, they are attached using the straps and then lowered gently downward and put on the stretcher.

In cases where someone has had an accident and then starts to feel pain after the fact, this would be done to ensure c-spine stability until the person had been thoroughly checked.

One thing to bear in mind about spinal injuries - in a lot of cases, they don't present immediately. All the stuff you see on TV about "can you wiggle your fingers" is not really very helpful. It's perfectly possible to wiggle your fingers and toes with a spinal injury. It's perfectly possible to walk around with certain kinds of spinal injury. For a while anyway. The main issue with spinal injuries is less the breaking of the vertibrae and more to do with damage to the spinal cord. That's the thing that will paralyse you. Immobilising someone with a spinal injury is to try to protect the spinal cord by limiting any movement that might cause the exposed cord to be damaged.

Adrenaline is an amazing thing, but it can mask symptoms of serious injury for quite some time - Al's experience is a very good example of this. Also people have different pain thresholds and do not always react the way you might expect to certain injuries. One person may be crying with pain at a sprained ankle, whilst another may be only showing slight discomfort when they have a broken bone.

EvilPumpkin · 10 Oct 2005, 14:50 (Ref:1429660)

Incidentally, if anyone would like to register their support, we now have a petition set up here

Please note that we do need your real details for this to be of any assistance. For the email address area, if you could choose the "Available to Petition Author" that would be appreciated.

We really appreciate your help and support on this.

Al Weyman · 10 Oct 2005, 14:57 (Ref:1429669)

Hey EP he was'nt another Irish Priest in disquise as a race driver was he ? Is so send Stephen out there to sort him out next time!

Joking aside when I was a mere lad I worked for Roger Nathan Racing and I had spent a good few weeks sorting out his mothballed Imp for a Dutch girl to have a race in. I was standing at the fence at Lydden Hill with Radio London's driver Keith St.John (her fella) and she comes wanging around the left hander leading up the hill on the first lap and rolls the thing. I remember Kieth yelling out 'Lianna' and me shouting as just as loud 'Look what the silly *itch has she done to my bloody car'. Stupid I know and if she had not walked away uninjured I would have felt right bad and probably have been hooked by Kieth (he was a bruiser) but it is just the spur of the moment thing as this incident probably was and the guy probably felt a right idiot after.

EvilPumpkin · 10 Oct 2005, 15:02 (Ref:1429675)

I'd like to believe that he did Al. But the absence of an apology would indicate otherwise.

Still maybe you're right and he's just shy...........

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