Multi-Class-Racing: Good, bad or ugly?

[Speed-King]

We've touched upon this in a few other threads before, but since it's been somewhat quiet in here lately and I like me some good speculation and what-if-threads, a dedicated thread for the subject.

I am too young (and too German ) to have ever seen true multi-class-racing in a major European Touring car Championship, but from what I see on the sportscar side of the racing world, I really like the idea and think that it produces at least in sportscar racing noticeably better races than single class competition. There might not be as many drivers to race against in your own class, but lapping traffic always seems to create interesting passing opportunities and unpredictable situations. And then there's of course the aspect of possibly elegible cars.

But while multi-class-racing is exciting in sportscar races, our Procar series with its three classes is hardly anything to write home about. I think that is more due to the extremely varying levels of talent in that series and the too short race distances that create hardly any traffic.

So, what's your opinion?

[JAG]

Multi class BTCC of the late 80's was great, even with the Cosworths dominating.

For the BTCC I'd introduce Group N like cars for upto 2000cc and above 2000cc with all drive forms allowed.

Ballast, restrictors and rev limiters could be used to balance the cars.

Keep things simple and allow manufactuers to race the cars they sell, whether it be a V6, 2l turbo, 1.8 hatchback, whatever.

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

from what I see on the sportscar side of the racing world, I really like the idea and think that it produces at least in sportscar racing noticeably better races than single class competition

In general multi-class sportscar/GT racing is somewhat different to the pre-90s multi-class BTCC.

In sportscar terms you may have LMP1/GT1/GT2/GT3/etc classes but the overall champion is based on overall race results and therefore always from the top class. We saw similar in the BTCC in 2001/2 with class B - they were in the same race but not really part of the same championship

In previous multi-class BTCC, each class is awarded their own points and the overall champion is the driver with the most class points. John Cleland's 89 season was a good example - he was easily top of his class so could consistently score top points, whereas in classes A & B there was much more competition so it was harder for one driver to score as many points.

[Valenok]

Multi-class racing is good solution for endurance racing, or for races with small number of competitors (in single class). In another cases the're too hard for understanding.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by redshoes

In general multi-class sportscar/GT racing is somewhat different to the pre-90s multi-class BTCC.

I am aware of that and systems like this are still used in the VLN-Nordschleife-Endurance-Series and some German Club Racing series, albeit with the small twist that available points are determined by the number of cars per class. Still, I think that a system like this would be too complicated for a mainstream series and in this day and age separate class championships would be preferable.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by redshoes

In previous multi-class BTCC, each class is awarded their own points and the overall champion is the driver with the most class points. John Cleland's 89 season was a good example - he was easily top of his class so could consistently score top points, whereas in classes A & B there was much more competition so it was harder for one driver to score as many points.

The general principle is correct, but it goes back before the eighties of course. In fact from around 1960 touring car/saloon races were run nationally and internationally to a class structure.

As you say it gave the smaller classes the opportunity to win the championship outright but better than that you got the David and Goliath races which provided great entertainment.

ETCC and BTCC events were over subscribed because there were places for all cars not just the most expensive and well developed. Even if you take the current regs, the costs for very little in the way of actual speed, are horrendous. A multi class system to sensible regs based upon production components would provide great entertainment.

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Still, I think that a system like this would be too complicated for a mainstream series and in this day and age separate class championships would be preferable.

This is an old soar trotted out by those with little or no attention span and the PR numpties with an axe to grind. In particluar the boss of the BTCC used this to bring in Supertouring. If you want to see racing then no matter what size of engine, as long as there's racing what's complicated?

Your scenario suggests that a grid of 10 cars of the same size is better than a grid of thirty cars of differing class. Apart from the problems of costs for running separate races, the spectacle is lost. IMHO this is why the dreaded contact was allowed in the BTCC and which has crept into other areas of the sport. It "sexed up" what was basically a pretty bland package.

Overall I think a return to a production based multi-class championship would benefit everyone.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by Valenok

Multi-class racing is good solution for endurance racing, or for races with small number of competitors (in single class). In another cases the're too hard for understanding.

That pretty much covers my POV as well. The only thing that makes sense to run together even if it would otherwise be enough cars is the "manufacturer/privateer" deviation we eg have in WTCC/BTCC/STCC/DTC.

[werner]

Another problem that will occur in short races with multiple classes is that there will be lapping, but not much. In such cases a race can be lost due to one backmarker making a mistake. This problem is smaller at endurance-races, where everybody has to lap or be lapped a lot of times, therby, using the law of large numbers, making overtaking slower cars just another ability needed to win a race.

Idea: organise a European Superproduction/ S1600 championship that races at the European WTCC-weekends. Let them run their own separate races. Exept for 1 WTCC-endurancerace (500km at Spa or Nordschleife would be cool), where they should join the WTCC-race.

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

I am aware of that and systems like this are still used in the VLN-Nordschleife-Endurance-Series and some German Club Racing series, albeit with the small twist that available points are determined by the number of cars per class.

It's still used by some UK club series, LMA Euro Saloons for example. There's usually a requirement for a minimum number of entries in each class before points are awarded. In some cases there's 2 cut off levels with half points awarded if the class has more than a certain number of entrants and then full points if there are a larger number of entries

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

The general principle is correct, but it goes back before the eighties of course. In fact from around 1960 touring car/saloon races were run nationally and internationally to a class structure.

Indeed, hence we I refered to pre-90s BTCC earlier. Cleland was just one example, but a well known one.

This is an old soar trotted out by those with little or no attention span and the PR numpties with an axe to grind.

There's some truth in it though. Your typical TV viewer may be more of a casual fan of motorsports. To them it makes no sense the guy with the fastest car who wins the most races doesn't become champion.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

I am too young (and too German ) to have ever seen true multi-class-racing in a major European Touring car Championship

Your national touring car series (procar) has multi-classes.

Multi-classes in endurance racing: yes
Multi-classes in sprint racing (BTCC, WTCC): no

[gregc]

Originally Posted by FIRE

Multi-classes in endurance racing: yes
Multi-classes in sprint racing (BTCC, WTCC): no

Pretty much sums up how I feel too. I also agree that for the casual viewer, the guy who always finishes 8th winning the championship would make no sense at all. In fact it makes no sense to me as an enthusiast, either.

[Speed-King]

This is an old soar trotted out by those with little or no attention span and the PR numpties with an axe to grind. In particluar the boss of the BTCC used this to bring in Supertouring. If you want to see racing then no matter what size of engine, as long as there's racing what's complicated?

Your scenario suggests that a grid of 10 cars of the same size is better than a grid of thirty cars of differing class. Apart from the problems of costs for running separate races, the spectacle is lost. IMHO this is why the dreaded contact was allowed in the BTCC and which has crept into other areas of the sport. It "sexed up" what was basically a pretty bland package.

I think you misunderstood what I said. I am all for multi class racing, but I would prefer separate championships for each class like it is nowadays done in sportscar racing and as it was done in the BTCC earlier this decade.

As for the Procar-series: Sadly, I don't think this series can properly show what good multi class racing is all about, the gaps are just too huge and the fact that divisions II and III are pretty much exclusively occupied by old Fiesta- oder Clio-Cup cars doesn't help either.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by gregc

Pretty much sums up how I feel too. I also agree that for the casual viewer, the guy who always finishes 8th winning the championship would make no sense at all. In fact it makes no sense to me as an enthusiast, either.

If the viewer is so casual I doubt they even know who has won the championship, they'll just tune into the odd race.

S2000 is dull, boring, expensive and slow, with small, uninteresting grids.

Super touring was a one off, it won't be replicated, therefore you need to return to production cars, which dictates a variety of engine and driveline configerations are allowed.

You can also have overall and/or class championships, it doesn't really matter.

[gregc]

Originally Posted by JAG

S2000 is dull, boring, expensive and slow, with small, uninteresting grids.

In that case we will have to agree to differ - I like S2000 as a formula. I'd say a 22 car grid with 9 (I think) different models, as we had at Thruxton, is perfectly ok - especially given that I believe at most circuits there is a limit of 26 or so anyway.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by JAG

S2000 is dull, boring, expensive and slow, with small, uninteresting grids.

Taking the BTCC as an example this season,

Dull and boring - 6 races, 6 different winners so far.

Expensive - 1 factory team in 2009, yet 24 entrants in the championship.

Slow - Matt Neal set a lap record qualifying for Brands, lapping at an average of 88.31mph. Only 1.7s slower than the Carrera pole time.
The pole time at Thruxton was set at 108.75mph. This is plenty quick enough for me and speed doesn't always mean excitement.

Small grids - 24 entrants, with 22 starters, in a championship that races at venues with a 26-car limit is performing at near maximum capacity.

Uninteresting grids - 22 cars at Thruxton, with 4 former champions, in a series that has 8 different makes of car, 12 different models and 3 different fuel types.

What would you change to give more excitement, greater speed, lower costs and large, interesting grids?

[Craig]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Your scenario suggests that a grid of 10 cars of the same size is better than a grid of thirty cars of differing class.

What is worse? 10 cars in a single class (Brands Hatch 2001 anyone?) or 30 cars in half a dozen different classes falling over each other whilst racing in two and threes? Neither will work. Right or wrong touring cars are different to what old farts like Peter remember and there is no way back to multi-class racing thankfully. What they have to concentrate on is getting more cars out in that one class. They do it pretty well in Oz rom what I saw when I was there... and there are, what?, 20 million Aussies... there has to be a market here in the UK if only they could pull their fingers out their arses and do it right.

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by FIRE

Your national touring car series (procar) has multi-classes.

Multi-classes in endurance racing: yes
Multi-classes in sprint racing (BTCC, WTCC): no

Exactly