Ricardo-Judd Diesel V10 is go!!!!.....

[knighty]

Just been reading Autosport (p17) and read that the british government funded Energy Efficient Motorsport (EEMS) has given Judd and Ricardo a wad of cash to start properly developing a Diesel V10 sports car engine .......to be running by spring 06, but will need additional cash to complete the project, shouldnt be hard to find after Audi R10 steamrollers everyone at Sebring 06 .......this looks like to be a wise decision, as if it takes off........going by the CAT-Taurus-VW distance covered between fuel stops - it will take off........I can just imagine the amount of Judd equipped chassis that will be converted to oil burners.......just as long as the transmissions can handle 1200Nm of torque .......I'm told the CAT-V10-VW thingy ate clutches for fun.........none the less, all sounds quite exciting to me........roll on the oil burners

[yamato]

Yeah, Diesel power holds the possibilty of changing the face of endurance motorsports.

[vs346]

Agreed yamato, and who'd a thunk it?

I'm the first one to admit, I never thought diesel would ever takeoff, but here we go, slowly but surely.

[cybersdorf]

They don't need to develop it, they already have it! Remember the project that was shelved some 2 years or so ago? All they have to do is unshelve it.

[knighty]

Reading between the lines, it looks like all Ricardo and Judd did was build a show engine to generate interest at technical shows and magazines, basically a normal V10 fitted with turbos, a jazzy inlet and a commonrail fuel system, and never actually ran anything on the dyno - unless I'm mistaken????.......

whenever the boffins at Ricardo talk about power figures they always refer to the results of a computer simulation........I design diesel engines for a living and I'm well aware of the Judd V10 engine layout........wide bore - short stroke.......this is completley the opposite of what you need for a diesel engine.......long stroke - small bore,l in order to get the high compression ratios of around 20:1......I'n not saying converting the Judd V10 is impossible.........but its certainly going to be an uphill struggle......as its not an ideal layout to start with.......I can quite understand why Ian Dawson went the VW route with CAT, as thats a much better layout........I'm interested to see the results from Ricardo-Judd

There are some major problems to address, The cylinder heads will need totally re-designing to add swirl-curves to the inlet ports, a large bowl will need adding to the piston making it darn taller, heat rejection to the water jacket will be much greater, compression ratio needs dramatically increasing, piston top-rim temperatures will be very high, very high combustion forces will require a new crank, con-rods and valves.......the head seal (gasket) will probably also need a major re-design........then theres the common-rail fuel system.......mapping that will be an art itself........the Ricardo & Judd boys have a serious challenge there .........I reckon by the time they have finished it will not resemble a Judd in any way.

[Flat12-Aircool]

All this effort by Judd and Audi etc just to get 1 extra lap between pitstops at Le Mans?

Wow thats really going to save the planet!!!

Now if the Audi R10 was Hydrogen powered then I could understand all the fuss, but a Diesel engine is just as much a Technological "Brick wall" as Petrol engines are!

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Flat12-Aircool

All this effort by Judd and Audi etc just to get 1 extra lap between pitstops at Le Mans?

Wow thats really going to save the planet!!!

Well, the press release did state that it was as much as 2 laps. 2 lap increase from 13 laps is pretty impressive as a percentage. It isn't going to save the world, but it certainly is a start.

You know, it would be pretty impressive if across the world, we could immediately reduce fuel usage by 15%.

Then suppose you add on an existing Hydrogen add on unit that already exists. In practical terms, the manufacturer claims an additional 15-25% more efficiency... now we are talking.

Sure, it is a small step, but I think this sport has a great deal to offer, if they continue to push the envelope of being "green"... one step at a time of course.

[Kempi]

You know, it would be pretty impressive if across the world, we could immediately reduce fuel usage by 15%.

Once they start selling decent diesel in North America, that could be pretty easily achieved. Diesel are getting close to 50% of the sales here in Europe and with them comes either a huge power increase for same fuel usage or big fuel saving with the same power.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Flat12-Aircool

All this effort by Judd and Audi etc just to get 1 extra lap between pitstops at Le Mans?

Wow thats really going to save the planet!!!

No, but it could win the greatest motor race on the planet. Which, I think, is the main reason.

Although the rules allow it to have an advantage at the moment. It is easy to make a 600bhp engine (diesel or petrol) and you can't go much over that due to the restrictions. Therefore the trick is to produce 600bhp and imporve economy. Quick give me a diesel.

Audi's previous work with petrol engines to make them effiecient is just as important.

Still it is good that Audi aren't doing it on their own and we do have some competition.

[skycafe]

Isn't there also efficiency in refining for diesel versus gas? I think less engery is used to create diesel, so increasing market share of diesel also means there would be less energy used in fuel manufacture?

robert

only 78 days till Sebring (depending on your timezone )

[knighty]

for you tree huggers out there, bio-fuel can also help save the planet......it can grow it from crops (sugar beet and rape seed, and the stuff D1 use)...... squash out the oil from the seeds, then refine the oil.........they dont need to drill in the ground, ship the crude oil all over the place for messy refining etc......bio-diesel is deffo the way forward with regard to saving the planet

[skycafe]

I am not sure I agree that bio-fuel is that fabulous! Fertilizers, insectides, water use, etc., plus there must be a lot of energy use to actually turn it into usable fuel. I am sure these are genetically engineered crops too, and while not then being used for food, which people are widly rejecting, then also opens the door to all those concerns about masses of genetically engineered crops being planted.

My opinion only

robert

78 days till Sebring!

[ss_collins]

Genetically engineered crops - there is no actual evidence of them doing any harm at all!

[cmk]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

Genetically engineered crops - there is no actual evidence of them doing any harm at all!

I don't want to turn this into a sidetracked debate, but this is a very contentious statement and highlights the gross unawareness of the general populous to the state of the scientific community's understanding of GMOs. There has been such a paucity of peer-reviewed long-term study in this field that no evidence says more about how much has been looked for than found.

Harm to the human consumers and ecological harm are two totally different things, as well, and the latter is harder to test in controlled conditions but likely far more devastating in the long run.

[cybersdorf]

Let's just engineer the hell out of all nature, and when the backash happens in a couple of decades, we'll all be dead by then anyhow! And thoe who have to cope with it can always blame it on the bio fuel... "Attack Of The Killer Tomatoes..." Nice strategy.

Isn't the idea of biological fuel to create a fuel source that grows back? It's okay to love good old gasoline but it'll be gone one of these days. I don't think anyone ever said plant-based fuel was not harmful to the environment. Fossile fuel these days isn't as harmful as it was some time back, so the same development will no doubt happen for plant-based fuel.

Besides, the less fuel used the better for the environment, and diesels hve the best fuel consumption of production engines out there. So if this can be optimised through racing then that's not a bad thing. Certainly way more interesting than carburetted pushrod V8s...

And what better place to optimise consumption than endurance racing.

[Flat12-Aircool]

Don't get me wrong I'm all in favour of the research into Diesel engines etc, but let's not kid ourselves that its going to save the planet or anything!

One of my main concerns for the future of racing straingly enough is how racing is going to sound 30 years from now. Today there's nothing like the scream of a Petrol engine car racing 200mph down a back straight.

Now we already now Mr. Kristensen's statements about how much quieter the Diesel engine in the R10 is than the unit in the R8 when at high rev's. But also if racing in the future moves into Hydrogen Fuel Cell engines etc, how much quieter are they going to be?

To me the sound of a racing car is half the attraction, and the current direction that motor racing development is taking seems to paint a rather more quieter and less compelling vision of the sport. That's why Bio-fuels to me, appear to hold the best future path for motor-racing in maintaining a sport that pulls in spectator's on mass.

IMHO.

[cmk]

Originally Posted by cybersdorf

Isn't the idea of biological fuel to create a fuel source that grows back? It's okay to love good old gasoline but it'll be gone one of these days. I don't think anyone ever said plant-based fuel was not harmful to the environment. Fossile fuel these days isn't as harmful as it was some time back, so the same development will no doubt happen for plant-based fuel.

Besides, the less fuel used the better for the environment, and diesels hve the best fuel consumption of production engines out there. So if this can be optimised through racing then that's not a bad thing. Certainly way more interesting than carburetted pushrod V8s...

And what better place to optimise consumption than endurance racing.

Certainly this is the idea. I think what I was getting at is that not all forms of agricultural development are necessarily as sustainable or environmentally friendly as the general public believes they are.

Biodiesel is a great idea, don't get me wrong, but it's also important that it doesn't come from GMOs grown in an agressive monoculture strategy with extensive pesticide/herbicide use, or in traditionally marginal agricultural areas, or it's not exactly saving the world quite as thoroughly as they'd like you to believe it is.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by cmk

I don't want to turn this into a sidetracked debate, but this is a very contentious statement and highlights the gross unawareness of the general populous to the state of the scientific community's understanding of GMOs.

I would say that the populus generally beleive it is a scarey bad thing for the same ignorance you are alluding too. But OT.

Originally Posted by cmk

cybersdorf

And what better place to optimise consumption than endurance racing.[/QUOTE]
This comes naturally in endurance racing. There has always been a trade off with consumption (and weight). However I think we are in danger of having rules written specifically for it and I'm not sure that we need this. As Audi did recently fuel consumption has improved due to (and for) racing. What we have no is something that artificially puts a diesel up there in terms of power (or rather brings a petrol engine down).

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

......However I think we are in danger of having rules written specifically for it and I'm not sure that we need this.......

I think we already have, just ask Audi, Peugeot and the ACO...........

[knighty]

Does anyone know how the Ricardo-Judd diesel is coming along? - the last I heard was they got a small grant from the MIA in order to get a converted V10 judd-diesel engine running on the dyno - no small feat - and John Judd is saying an engine will be ready late this year.......anyone know more than that?

but after that they will need a proper investor to take the engine further.......as Ricardo are now well in bed with JCB on the diesel-max project - surely they would be interested - now I'm sure theres a joke in that somewhere!.......I can imagine the grid now , Lola-JCB, Courage-JCB, Creation-JCB...... ........but seriously - it would be great for this project to take off in my opinion.

[The Badger]

Oh no ..... not another bloody diesel ..... hope there will still be a few petrol engines about in a few years .

I just dont like'em .

[gwyllion]

Some information about the JCB Dieselmax engine developed by Ricardo, as well as the Audi R10 TDI engine: http://www.ae-plus.com/OEM%20News/PD...6%20p22-23.pdf

[Nordic]

Originally Posted by knighty

- now I'm sure theres a joke in that somewhere!.......I can imagine the grid now , Lola-JCB, Courage-JCB, Creation-JCB...... ........but seriously - it would be great for this project to take off in my opinion.

Given that the Bamford family are very interested in motorsport and have a large collection of historic race cars I would not rule some involvement in the future.

[Alex Hodgkinson]

Originally Posted by Flat12-Aircool

One of my main concerns for the future of racing straingly enough is how racing is going to sound 30 years from now. Today there's nothing like the scream of a Petrol engine car racing 200mph down a back straight.......but also if racing in the future moves into Hydrogen Fuel Cell engines etc, how much quieter are they going to be?

I'm confused about the move to diesel power in sports cars. To me, diesel power is not a step forward in terms of pollution, it's simply a different fuel to run the cars on.

I know a guy called Bob Clowes who's been involved in the British Superkart scene for many years. For the last 3 or 4 years he's been developing a fuel in conjunction with a petrochemicals scientist and with government funding. It's chemically similar to methanol, yet works like a premix fuel (ie. it has excellent lubrication qualities.) In practise it can be used in place of normal petroleum with minimal adjustments to the engine, and when burnt it's resultant chemicals are harmless to the enviroment. Recently in back-to-back tests with petrol-fueled engines it showed to have a higher power output.

So.. IMO this is what cars will have to run on in the future.

[GTfour]

I can't seem to feel the same enthousiasm for diesels as some on this thread do.
To me,they're just downright boring to hear and see. And as for the so called benefits it has for mother nature,this is just a smokescreen to sell ever more diesels to the consumer. If you think manufacturers are more interrested in the invironment then in selling cars,then I'd say,dream on,dream on...